That the Digital Research that made DR-DOS was the same DRI that made
CP/M. I read an article describing the history of CP/M and DR-DOS, and
now I want to run a DR-DOS VM for old time's sake.

I was one of those outliers that didn't run Windows in the early 90s. I
didn't have a lot of horsepower at home - when I had a local bus 486/50
with 16 MB of RAM at work, I had a 386SX/16 with 3 mb of RAM at home.

I ran DR-DOS and SuperStor (my co-sysop worked for Addstor and got comp
copies of each) and GEOWorks Ensemble. With DR-DOS' task switcher, it
was a pretty cool setup.

Outside of Geoworks, it was all Borland Sidekick, Qedit and Telix.



--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

Re: Today I learned
By: poindexter FORTRAN to All on Sun Jun 16 2024 08:07 am

That the Digital Research that made DR-DOS was the same DRI that made CP/M. I read an article describing the history of CP/M and DR-DOS, and now I want to run a DR-DOS VM for old time's sake.

I was one of those outliers that didn't run Windows in the early 90s. I didn't have a lot of horsepower at home - when I had a local bus 486/50 with 16 MB of RAM at work, I had a 386SX/16 with 3 mb of RAM at home.

I ran DR-DOS and SuperStor (my co-sysop worked for Addstor and got comp copies of each) and GEOWorks Ensemble. With DR-DOS' task switcher, it was a pretty cool setup.

My first PC was a hand-me-down 286-12 in 1992, and then I got it upgraded to a 386SX-16 in 1993. At the time I didn't know of GeoWorks yet, and I mainly ran MS-DOS, and I did run Windows 3.1 sometimes (which I thought ran okay, but perhaps a bit slow). I remember getting a copy of DR-DOS somewhere, but I never really gave it much of a try back then.

Nightfox

That the Digital Research that made DR-DOS was the same DRI that made CP/M. I read an article describing the history of CP/M and DR-DOS, and
now I want to run a DR-DOS VM for old time's sake.

I'd be interested in a DR-DOS VM too - I remember hearing about DR-DOS but I never saw it running.

I ran DR-DOS and SuperStor (my co-sysop worked for Addstor and got comp copies of each) and GEOWorks Ensemble. With DR-DOS' task switcher, it
was a pretty cool setup.

Sounds very cool! I do remember hearing/reading about DR-DOS and SuperStor, I don't remember much about GEOWorks Ensemble (the name GEOWorks vaguely rings a bell but that's it). I heard that DR-DOS did task switching, but didn't know anyone running it.

I used DESQview in DOS 6.22 on a 486 to run a BBS (1 line) and be able to multitask to run other things at the same time. It worked well for DOS software which was mostly what I was interested in. (I had Win3.1 installed but didn't have much use for it)

I'm curious how the DR-DOS experience would compare.

Outside of Geoworks, it was all Borland Sidekick, Qedit and Telix.

DESQview, Qedit, and Telix are what I am running in my 'modern' DOSBox image. I never did use Sidekick, was just a bit late to the party.


Chris/akacastor


--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Another Millennium - Canada - another.tel (21:1/162)

I was one of those outliers that didn't run Windows in the early 90s. I didn't have a lot of horsepower at home - when I had a local bus 486/50 with 16 MB of RAM at work, I had a 386SX/16 with 3 mb of RAM at home.

I didn't got near Windoze until 95. Would've had budget 486s by then, but still had older at least one 386DX40 with 4mb which I temporarily installed
it on, just because I could and to see if it actually would.

The other half of the time was all for Win3.11 and that was kicking around at work, but I didn't see the value in it over DOS of the era.

Spec


*** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
--- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
* Origin: A camel is a horse designed by a committee. (21:3/101)

I'm curious how the DR-DOS experience would compare.

If you're wanting to use MicroSloth software with it, it can be hit and miss. They got busted for having code that detected DR-DOS on install, and
refusing to complete the install with spurious errors.

Spec


*** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
--- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
* Origin: A camel is a horse designed by a committee. (21:3/101)

AKAcastor wrote to Poindexter Fortran <=-

Sounds very cool! I do remember hearing/reading about DR-DOS and SuperStor, I don't remember much about GEOWorks Ensemble (the name GEOWorks vaguely rings a bell but that's it). I heard that DR-DOS did task switching, but didn't know anyone running it.

Geoworks looked like a Motif window manager, with lots of small apps
built-in, like a card file, word processor, publishing, and so on. It
would swap itself out for DOS apps. It was a fun little system back in
the early WYSIWYG days.

I used DESQview in DOS 6.22 on a 486 to run a BBS (1 line) and be able
to multitask to run other things at the same time. It worked well for
DOS software which was mostly what I was interested in. (I had Win3.1 installed but didn't have much use for it)

DESQview, Qedit, and Telix are what I am running in my 'modern' DOSBox image. I never did use Sidekick, was just a bit late to the party.

DESQview in DOSBOX, eh? Are you running a DOS image inside of it? If
memory serves, DESQView needed QEMM to run.




... Adding on
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

Geoworks looked like a Motif window manager, with lots of small apps
built-in, like a card file, word processor, publishing, and so on. It
would swap itself out for DOS apps. It was a fun little system back in
the early WYSIWYG days.

I think a friend's family's computer may have had Geoworks on it but I would have only seen it exiting to DOS to play games. (Where In The World Is Carmen Sandiego?)

DESQview in DOSBOX, eh? Are you running a DOS image inside of it? If
memory serves, DESQView needed QEMM to run.

Yes, I am running QEMM also! DOSBox-X booting an MS-DOS 6.22 image with QEMM 8.0 and DESQview 2.80, also with Microsoft Network Client version 3.0 for DOS to mount a network share as drive D:.

With the network client loaded it gets a bit low on conventional memory (418 K free in a DOS window inside DESQview), but it's enough to run most things. Outside of DESQview there is 536 K available (with the network client loaded).


Chris/akacastor

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Another Millennium - Canada - another.tel (21:1/162)

Geoworks looked like a Motif window manager, with lots of small apps built-in, like a card file, word processor, publishing, and so on. It would swap itself out for DOS apps. It was a fun little system back in
the early WYSIWYG days.

I think a friend's family's computer may have had Geoworks on it but I would have only seen it exiting to DOS to play games. (Where In The World Is Carmen Sandiego?)

There was a version of GEOS with GEOWORKS available for the Apple II. Not
sure what their thought process was, but for something that was meant to
behave like an O/S they decided to copy protect it, on top of which it came
on 4 floppies. It was a sad second place to Appleworks and Multiscribe back then. The O/S aspect was made redundant by the fact you couldn't install it
on any kind of mass storage.

Spec


*** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
--- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
* Origin: A camel is a horse designed by a committee. (21:3/101)

DESQview in DOSBOX, eh? Are you running a DOS image inside of it? If memory serves, DESQView needed QEMM to run.

Yes, I am running QEMM also! DOSBox-X booting an MS-DOS 6.22 image with QEMM 8.0 and DESQview 2.80, also with Microsoft Network Client version 3.0 for DOS to mount a network share as drive D:.

Chuckle, so you're running SMB.. I never had a lot of joy with the MS client
so I went with NFS.

I believe DESQview doesn't require QEMM specifically, but does require some kind of memory manager, and in every case I've seen, DV came with QEMM making it the most likely candidate. Pretty sure you needed a 386 also, so even if you had QRAM or similar for a 286 it wouldn't run.

Spec


*** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
--- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
* Origin: A camel is a horse designed by a committee. (21:3/101)

Yes, I am running QEMM also! DOSBox-X booting an MS-DOS 6.22 image with QEMM 8.0 and DESQview 2.80, also with Microsoft Network Client version 3.0 for DOS to mount a network share as drive D:.

With the network client loaded it gets a bit low on conventional memory (418 K free in a DOS window inside DESQview), but it's enough to run most things. Outside of DESQview there is 536 K available (with the network client loaded).

What options are you loading QEMM with? I'm not running DV, I use a VM for
each node/task, but I've got 593k conventional free. After network driver,
TCP stack, and NFS. Some might depend on what level of graphics you're using,
I snaffled video ram on mine.

Spec


*** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
--- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
* Origin: A camel is a horse designed by a committee. (21:3/101)

What options are you loading QEMM with? I'm not running DV, I use a VM for each node/task, but I've got 593k conventional free. After network driver, TCP stack, and NFS. Some might depend on what level of
graphics you're using, I snaffled video ram on mine.

DEVICE=C:\QEMM\QEMM386.SYS RAM R:2 BE:N

Most of the memory usage is the network drivers, with none of the Microsoft Network Client stuff in autoexec.bat, I can boot with 633K free. Maybe it can be optimized further, but this is what qemm OPTIMIZE gave me.


Chris/akacastor

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Another Millennium - Canada - another.tel (21:1/162)

AKAcastor wrote to Spectre <=-

DEVICE=C:\QEMM\QEMM386.SYS RAM R:2 BE:N

Most of the memory usage is the network drivers, with none of the Microsoft Network Client stuff in autoexec.bat, I can boot with 633K
free. Maybe it can be optimized further, but this is what qemm
OPTIMIZE gave me.

I remember so much time spent optimizing memory, loading drivers in high memory, then using the computer for a couple of minutes, having it
crash, then having to isolate which driver didn't like being in high
memory... lather, rinse, repeat.



... The Tour de France is held in Malaysia.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

Re: Re: Today I learned
By: Spectre to AKAcastor on Wed Jun 19 2024 09:31 pm

I believe DESQview doesn't require QEMM specifically, but does require some kind of memory manager, and in every case I've seen, DV came with QEMM making it the most likely candidate. Pretty sure you needed a 386 also, so even if you had QRAM or similar for a 286 it wouldn't run.

It has been a long time since I used QEMM and DesqView, but I seem to remember DesqView saying I'd need to set up QEMM in order for it to use some features related to multi-tasking, or maybe just for more optimal behavior. I don't remember for sure.

Nightfox

DEVICE=C:\QEMM\QEMM386.SYS RAM R:2 BE:N

Close..

DEVICE=C:\QEMM\QEMM386.SYS RAM VREMS

Maybe it can be optimized further, but this is what qemm OPTIMIZE gave
me.

OPTIMIZE was useless here... it went through the motions and did its thing,
but in actual use everything refuses to load high. I'm also loading,
POWER.EXE, ANSI.SYS, RAMDRIVE and SMARTDRV in config.sys

Moving autoexec.bat, I've got SHARE, VIDRAM ON, PCNTPK (CrynWyr), PKTMUX, PKTDRV, XFSkrnl, PKTDRV and rlfossil. Again nothing in here will load high either.

Spec


*** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
--- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
* Origin: A camel is a horse designed by a committee. (21:3/101)

I remember so much time spent optimizing memory, loading drivers in high memory, then using the computer for a couple of minutes, having it
crash, then having to isolate which driver didn't like being in high memory... lather, rinse, repeat.

Haha yes, the memory can be kept fresh if you want, DOSBox emulates this process really well. :)

Once in a while though you might eke out another 1 or 2 K! Precious, precious K's...


Chris/akacastor

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Another Millennium - Canada - another.tel (21:1/162)

DEVICE=C:\QEMM\QEMM386.SYS RAM VREMS

OPTIMIZE was useless here... it went through the motions and did its thing, but in actual use everything refuses to load high. I'm also loading, POWER.EXE, ANSI.SYS, RAMDRIVE and SMARTDRV in config.sys

Moving autoexec.bat, I've got SHARE, VIDRAM ON, PCNTPK (CrynWyr), PKTMUX, PKTDRV, XFSkrnl, PKTDRV and rlfossil. Again nothing in here will load high either.

On my DOSBox-X setup, using VIDRAM ON makes DESQview unstable. It runs at first, but if I open and close a couple DOS windows then it crashes. I think the use of VIDRAM (or rather, me not using it) is making the big difference in memory availability. I wonder what is causing the instability on my DOSBox-X setup and if it could be solved with a configuration change. Or is it as simple as changing my DESQview display adaptor settings? (currently VGA, with 'do you want text & graphics displayed at the same time' set to Yes and synchronized access set to No)

Do you happen to know what the R: parameter for QEMM386.SYS is? I haven't found a description in the tech nodes included with QEMM yet, but I have noticed that when I let optimize run it adds an R:1 or R:2 parameter.


Chris/akacastor

--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Another Millennium - Canada - another.tel (21:1/162)

I remember so much time spent optimizing memory, loading drivers in high memory, then using the computer for a couple of minutes, having it
crash, then having to isolate which driver didn't like being in high memory... lather, rinse, repeat.

I was probably a little late to the DOS party, but I don't recall having any problems with drivers that didn't like to load high. What I do recall as
time went on was more drivers needing to be sequenced correctly. Notably MSCDEX aannd network drivers. CDs looked like network devices to DOS.. I
think I had to load the network drivers first off hand... if you didn't get
it right some of your devices went missing.

Apparently, and I don't know if this one is spurious or not, was not to load SHARE high. If you did, it looked ok, and things would assume it was there, but it'd be non-functional.

Spec


*** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
--- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
* Origin: A camel is a horse designed by a committee. (21:3/101)

Apparently, and I don't know if this one is spurious or
not, was not to load
SHARE high. If you did, it looked ok, and things would
assume it was there,
but it'd be non-functional.

I think I have heard that before, though I haven't experienced/verified it myself.

I am using QEMM LOADHI.SYS to load SHARE.EXE and it is working (unless there's some edge cases I missed testing).

INSTALL=C:\QEMM\LOADHI.SYS /R:2 C:\DOS\SHARE.EXE

File locking is working for files on the network share, if I have a file open and try to also open it in a share-aware program, it is prevented from opening. I'm not sure if there's better, more specific, tests to do, but at least I haven't experienced any data corruption on the BBS, so I think it's OK.

I wonder if MS-DOS's LOADHIGH has a problem with SHARE.EXE that QEMM's LOADHI.SYS doesn't. Or maybe there's another factor?


Chris/akacastor


--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Another Millennium - Canada - another.tel (21:1/162)

That the Digital Research that made DR-DOS was the same DRI that made CP/M. I read an article describing the history of CP/M and DR-DOS, and
now I want to run a DR-DOS VM for old time's sake.

I was one of those outliers that didn't run Windows in the early 90s. I didn't have a lot of horsepower at home - when I had a local bus 486/50 with 16 MB of RAM at work, I had a 386SX/16 with 3 mb of RAM at home.

I ran DR-DOS and SuperStor (my co-sysop worked for Addstor and got comp copies of each) and GEOWorks Ensemble. With DR-DOS' task switcher, it
was a pretty cool setup.

Outside of Geoworks, it was all Borland Sidekick, Qedit and Telix.

i recently learned about DR-DOS's Open-DOS variant... i compleatly forgot about dr-dos until i found a disk image of it with the ne2000 setup software on it

i want to try open dos! :Di am using FreeDOS so fuckin much i want to experiment. other news i got an SB16 CT1740 sound card for this machine

--mary4 (Victoria Crenshaw) the 286 enthusiast

... Error, no Keyboard - Press F1 to Continue.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Datanet BBS | telnet://datanetbbs.net:23 (21:1/166)

My first PC was a hand-me-down 286-12 in 1992, and then I got it
upgraded to a 386SX-16 in 1993. At the time I didn't know of GeoWorks

:) to :<

386 is too modern though man xD

i actually dont have 386 systems

--mary4 (Victoria Crenshaw) the 286 enthusiast

... There are three kinds of people: Those who can count, and those who can't

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Datanet BBS | telnet://datanetbbs.net:23 (21:1/166)

On my DOSBox-X setup, using VIDRAM ON makes DESQview unstable. It runs at first, but if I open and close a couple DOS windows then it crashes. I think the use of VIDRAM (or rather, me not using it) is making the big difference in memory availability. I wonder what is causing the instability on my DOSBox-X setup and if it could be solved with a configuration change. Or is it as simple as changing my DESQview display adaptor settings? (currently VGA, with 'do you want text & graphics displayed at the same time' set to Yes and synchronized access set to No)

I'm not sure what half those options are. I'm not using DV now, and was never able to in the past, the old NETware Lite drivers took to much conventional memory.

VGA is probably whats killing it. If you enable VREMS/VIDRAM you can't use VGA, its using the BIOS caching space for EMS. It's designed for text only, even if you have a VGA card.

Spec


*** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
--- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
* Origin: A camel is a horse designed by a committee. (21:3/101)

It has been a long time since I used QEMM and DesqView, but I seem to remember DesqView saying I'd need to set up QEMM in order for it to use some features related to multi-tasking, or maybe just for more optimal behavior. I don't remember for sure.

I'm sure you're right for anything pre DOS 5. After that I think you could
get away with EMM386. Locally some reported better results with one or the other. Never found much difference myself. Also aside from exploratory installations I never really used DV.

Spec


*** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
--- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
* Origin: A camel is a horse designed by a committee. (21:3/101)

I think I have heard that before, though I haven't experienced/verified it myself.

I have no evidence really one way or the other. Annecdotally it seemed to
fix problems at the time, but it could eaasily have been correlation not causation.

File locking is working for files on the network share, if I have a file open and try to also open it in a share-aware program, it is prevented from opening. I'm not sure if there's better, more specific, tests to do, but at least I haven't experienced any data corruption on the BBS, so I think it's OK.

The hardest workout we could give it was RAPUB. A pub chat setup that shared its messages via HD space rather than memory. Each node had to poll a drive
to check for unread messages, somehow they flagged them as read, and when the last node picked it up, it would delete it. This lived on a RAM drive over a network share for us. It tended to be pretty unreliable though. But it
could just as easily have been RAPUB with issues as share/network/multi-tasking.

Spec


*** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
--- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
* Origin: A camel is a horse designed by a committee. (21:3/101)

Re: Re: Today I learned
By: Spectre to Nightfox on Sat Jun 22 2024 05:44 pm

It has been a long time since I used QEMM and DesqView, but I seem to

I'm sure you're right for anything pre DOS 5. After that I think you could get away with EMM386. Locally some reported better results with one or the other. Never found much difference myself. Also aside from exploratory installations I never really used DV.

Yeah, even with MS-DOS 6 and above, I seem to remember getting a bit better results optimizing memory with QEMM compared to EMM386 and MS-DOS's memmaker.

Nightfox

Yeah, even with MS-DOS 6 and above, I seem to remember getting a bit better results optimizing memory with QEMM compared to EMM386 and MS-DOS's memmaker.

WE had some so anally retentive about looking for extra conventional memory that they'd mix and match tools from both in an effort to load more high. I think I played with EMM386 briefly when 5 came out, but stuck with QEMM the rest of the time.

Spec


*** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
--- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
* Origin: A camel is a horse designed by a committee. (21:3/101)

Hi Poindexter Fortran,

On Monday June 17 2024, Poindexter Fortran said to AKAcastor:

DESQview in DOSBOX, eh? Are you running a DOS image inside of it? If
memory serves, DESQView needed QEMM to run.

Actually DESQView dosn't "need" Qemm to run, it will work without it. But to get some of the extra features and more memory it's best to use them
together.


\/orlon
aka
Stephen

Rocking FSXnet with an Amiga 4000 and Zeus BBS.

--- Zeus BBS 1.5
* Origin: -:-- Dragon's Lair --:- dragon.vk3heg.net Prt: 6800 (21:1/196.0)

Hi Akacastor,

On Tuesday June 18 2024, Akacastor said to Spectre:

What options are you loading QEMM with? I'm not running DV, I use a VM
for each node/task, but I've got 593k conventional free. After network

DEVICE=C:\QEMM\QEMM386.SYS RAM R:2 BE:N

Most of the memory usage is the network drivers, with none of the
Microsoft Network Client stuff in autoexec.bat, I can boot with 633K
free. Maybe it can be optimized further, but this is what qemm OPTIMIZE gave me.

You need to run through mft and get the optimization tuned. There is a
analyses section, that lets you list memory to "include" on your qemm386
line..

ie: I:3dd0-3ff0

You go through that and try adding memory ranges that will allow the loading
of drivers in high memory, etc...



\/orlon
aka
Stephen

Rocking FSXnet with an Amiga 4000 and Zeus BBS.

--- Zeus BBS 1.5
* Origin: -:-- Dragon's Lair --:- dragon.vk3heg.net Prt: 6800 (21:1/196.0)

Hi Akacastor,

On Wednesday June 19 2024, Akacastor said to Spectre:

Do you happen to know what the R: parameter for QEMM386.SYS is? I
haven't found a description in the tech nodes included with QEMM yet,
but I have noticed that when I let optimize run it adds an R:1 or R:2 parameter.

I think it was refering to either Region's to include or just to use ram... it's been too long.... #0(

\/orlon
aka
Stephen

Rocking FSXnet with an Amiga 4000 and Zeus BBS.

--- Zeus BBS 1.5
* Origin: -:-- Dragon's Lair --:- dragon.vk3heg.net Prt: 6800 (21:1/196.0)

free. Maybe it can be optimized further, but this is what qemm
OPTIMIZE gave me.

You need to run through mft and get the optimization tuned. There is a analyses section, that lets you list memory to "include" on your qemm386 line..

Aside from having a general look at what was loading where, and seeing what conventional memory was free, I don't recall using Manifest for anything much else. Might not have fully understood it at the time. Back then optimize pretty much got it right, occasional footling around trying to coerce another driver/tsr high.

My current configuration being DOS 6.22 in Virtual Box steadfastly refuses to load anything high. Optimize can optimise until the cows have come home and gone to pasture again. It'll add in all its recommendations and on restart nothing will load high.. Oddly enough the free high memory is available and useable for things like RAMDRIVE and SMARTDRV. I'm back to pretty much just using RAMDRIVE though, if you run a big enough smartdrv it'll start handing
out the wrong files if they happen to have the same filename across
different sources.

Spec


*** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
--- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
* Origin: A camel is a horse designed by a committee. (21:3/101)

Hi Spec,

On Wednesday June 26 2024, Spectre said to Vorlon:

You need to run through mft and get the optimization tuned. There is a
analyses section, that lets you list memory to "include" on your
qemm386 line..

Aside from having a general look at what was loading where, and seeing
what conventional memory was free, I don't recall using Manifest for anything much else. Might not have fully understood it at the time.
Back then optimize pretty much got it right, occasional footling around trying to coerce another driver/tsr high.

I used it a lot. Was able to reakout more chungs of ram to include.

My current configuration being DOS 6.22 in Virtual Box steadfastly
refuses to load anything high. Optimize can optimise until the cows have come home and gone to pasture again. It'll add in all its
recommendations and on restart nothing will load high.

Yeap, have spent hours going through the process. My dos machine that I use when needed, went from about 538K to up at 600+K of conventional memory.

\/orlon
aka
Stephen

Rocking FSXnet with an Amiga 4000 and Zeus BBS.

--- Zeus BBS 1.5
* Origin: -:-- Dragon's Lair --:- dragon.vk3heg.net Prt: 6800 (21:1/196.0)