if Microsoft is not going to support WIndows 10 especially the 32 bit edition would OS/2 Arca Noae be the better solution?


--- WWIV 5.8.0.3681[Windows]
* Origin: inland utopia * california * iutopia.duckdns.org:2023 (21:4/108)

if Microsoft is not going to support WIndows 10 especially the 32 bit edition would OS/2 Arca Noae be the better solution?

Solution to what? An operating system to replace Windows 10? I doubt it. Some (any?) flavor of linux is going to be a better solution to "what operating system should I put on a machine that is no longer supported by Microsoft operating systems?"

Arca Noae, Haiku, MorphOS, AROS, etc. are all fun boutique operating
systems that are great to have installed on a second machine you can mess around with, but I can't imagine many people wanting to deal with the issues that would arise out of trying to use them as a daily driver.

(He says, posting from a machine running OS/2 Warp 3...)

---
* Origin: WalledCTTY (21:2/145)

Utopian Galt wrote to All <=-

if Microsoft is not going to support WIndows 10 especially the 32 bit edition would OS/2 Arca Noae be the better solution?

Depends on what you're running. Windows 10 is going to be supported
until at least 2025, so there's some time. Are you running a 32-bit OS
for compatibility with a DOS BBS, or running on a 32-bit CPU?

If you can run a 64-bit OS but are limited in RAM, I'd look at the XFCE versions of Ubuntu or Mint. They're relatively low-memory distros and
would run nicely in 4GB of memory.

I'm not sure of Arca Noae's support for Windows apps is like, it would
be nice if someone had ported WINE over to it.

If your CPU is 32-bit, you're a little limited as some distros are discontinuing support for 32-bit CPUs. Debian still comes with a 32-bit version, as do a couple of debian-based flavors.

I have a nice older home system. It's got a 4th generation i7, 16 GB of
RAM, but no TPM chip. I can't upgrade to Windows 11 automatically, but
may be able to upgrade from CD - but no guarantees from Microsoft. I may
be finally making the move to Linux in 2025.

I'd bet that corporate use of Windows 10 compels Microsoft to push
support out a little longer.



... Only a part, not the whole
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

BY: Abbub (21:2/145)

|11A|09> |10Arca Noae, Haiku, MorphOS, AROS, etc. are all fun boutique operating|07
|11A|09> |10systems that are great to have installed on a second machine you can|07
|11A|09> |10mess|07
|11A|09> |10around with, but I can't imagine many people wanting to deal with the|07
|11A|09> |10issues|07
|11A|09> |10that would arise out of trying to use them as a daily driver.|07
It would be for Retro gaming on DOS and bbsing.


--- WWIV 5.8.0.3681[Windows]
* Origin: inland utopia * california * iutopia.duckdns.org:2023 (21:4/108)

BY: poindexter FORTRAN (21:4/122)

|11pF|09> |10Depends on what you're running. Windows 10 is going to be supported|07
|11pF|09> |10until at least 2025, so there's some time. Are you running a 32-bit OS|07
|11pF|09> |10for compatibility with a DOS BBS, or running on a 32-bit CPU?|07 Its for DOS door game comptablity. I bought a licence in 2019 for my bbs to run via a virtual machine.


--- WWIV 5.8.0.3681[Windows]
* Origin: inland utopia * california * iutopia.duckdns.org:2023 (21:4/108)

Hi Utopian,

On Thursday April 27 2023, Utopian Galt said to All:

if Microsoft is not going to support WIndows 10 especially the 32 bit edition would OS/2 Arca Noae be the better solution?

What do you mean by 'not going to support windows 10'?

There is still a 32bit version of win10.. Although support ends in 2025 for
all win10 versions.


\/orlon
aka
Stephen

Rocking FSXnet with an Amiga 4000 and Zeus BBS.

--- Zeus BBS 1.5
* Origin: -:-- Dragon's Lair --:- dragon.vk3heg.net Prt: 6800 (21:1/195.5)

*** Quoting Utopian Galt to Abbub dated 04-28-23 ***

It would be for Retro gaming on DOS and bbsing.

Well, I don't think you need an updated version of the OS for that, do you? In fact, I'd probably argue that the best OS for retro gaming on DOS and BBSing is probably MS-DOS 6.22. :D But for a modern OS if I were ditching Windows and didn't want to go Mac, I'd definitely go Linux. For low maintenance, probably Pop!_OS.

---
* Origin: WalledCTTY (21:2/145)

if Microsoft is not going to support WIndows 10 especially the 32 bit edition would OS/2 Arca Noae be the better solution?

I'd say it really depends... I think you might be better served with Linux, or having a really locked down Windows install without remote access beyond the BBS services. One option might be having the main BBS on Linux and running a Windows VM internally for a door server if you want DOS doors without dealing with QEMU or DOSEMU.


--
Michael J. Ryan
+o roughneckbbs.com
tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)

RAM, but no TPM chip. I can't upgrade to Windows 11 automatically, but
may be able to upgrade from CD - but no guarantees from Microsoft. I may be finally making the move to Linux in 2025.

This is largely the situation I'm in - I have one PC that can (and does) run Windows-11, and my work laptop runs Windows-11. None of my other machines are capable (well, not officially capable).

For a lot of my $dayjob work I'm using WSL anyway, and when I'm not I'm using apps that are either web based, or available for Linux anyway. So I could use Linux at work - IT department permitting (I did use Linux at my last job, as did several of my colleagues).

Personally, I only run Windows 11 on this machine because running Davinci Resolve on Linux requires the $$$ version in order to get the codec support I need - and I may well pay that premium before too long and make the switch.

My workshop PC runs Windows 10, and it will almost certainly become a Linux machine in 2025 - I'd do it now except it's not a 5 minute change!

I'd bet that corporate use of Windows 10 compels Microsoft to push
support out a little longer.

I wouldn't be sure about that - it'll probably just mean that Microsoft will offer those corporates support at a price (ie, if you pay the yearly fee, you get security updates for an extra 5 years). I'm pretty sure I've heard of them doing that with previous versions of Windows..


TassieBob

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20220504
* Origin: TassieBob's BBS (21:3/169)

For a lot of my $dayjob work I'm using WSL anyway, and when I'm not I'm using apps that are either web based, or available for Linux anyway. So I could use Linux at work - IT department permitting (I did use Linux at my last job, as did several of my colleagues).

I'd say that WSL is the only thing that makes Windows tolerable at this point. Last place I was at the IT/Ops guys were testing Linux support, would have been a nice option.

Personally, I only run Windows 11 on this machine because running Davinci Resolve on Linux requires the $$$ version in order to get the codec support I need - and I may well pay that premium before too long and make the switch.

Yeah, can understand that, pretty much what I run the most is my browser, vs code and a terminal window (docker, programming tools, etc) which run pretty much everywhere. New job starts monday, will be back on a Mac, which has its' own quirks.

Have been considering giving Resolve a try, may just pony up for full version anyway. I was wanting to play around with AI video upscaling, but most of the options were windows only, and after close to two years still haven't done anything with it.

My workshop PC runs Windows 10, and it will almost certainly become a Linux machine in 2025 - I'd do it now except it's not a 5 minute change!

That's cool, at this point, I'm mostly Linux, my laptop is mac, and pretty much everything else I touch is running Linux as well.


--
Michael J. Ryan
+o roughneckbbs.com
tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)

Re: OS/2
By: TassieBob to poindexter FORTRAN on Sat May 06 2023 06:26 pm

This is largely the situation I'm in - I have one PC that can (and does) run Windows-11, and my work laptop runs Windows-11. None of my other machines are capable (well, not officially capable).

Well, thinking about it, I wouldn't mind getting a machine with 32GB of RAM and 6-8TB of NVME storage in 2025 to run Windows 11 on. :)

That would be enough of an upgrade from a 4th gen i7 and SATA-3 SSD to sway me...and I'd expect the prices to be relatively reasonable in 2025.

I wouldn't be sure about that - it'll probably just mean that Microsoft will offer those corporates support at a price (ie, if you pay the yearly fee, you get security updates for an extra 5 years). I'm pretty sure I've heard of them doing that with previous versions of Windows..

They did both with XP - extended the support horizon, *and* offered custom support for a high-five, low-six figure amount - enough that if you really needed it you could make it work, but not low enough that people would consider it frivolously. That said, they did offer a patch for a 0day after the deadline, which was nice.

With XP, the embedded version received upgrades for a couple of years more. Turns out that with a registry key, regular XP installs would get those patches, too.
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

Tracker1 wrote to TassieBob <=-

I'd say that WSL is the only thing that makes Windows tolerable at this point. Last place I was at the IT/Ops guys were testing Linux support, would have been a nice option.

I did a Linux desktop pilot program for my employer back in 2013, and
back then it was intriguing. We wanted to create a linux VM that would
run in a Windows host to get developers up and running quickly, but it
as quickly became a bare-metal possibility.

Libreoffice, Evolution and Chromium did most everything we needed from
an office standpoint, Centrify allowed us to use Active Directory for
logins, but the showstopper ended up being the services team
not wanting to support another management platform. SCCM had promised
to be cross-platform, but never held up the promise. We ended up
running Casper/JAMF for Macs, and would have had to add another layer for
Linux desktops.

Another project sprang out of my Linux desktop project. We were buying
monster Dell Precision workstations with single Xeon CPUs, 64 GB of
RAM and boot SSDs with 2 storage SATA drives- pretty impressive for the
time.

I did my VM image builds on an Optiplex 990 with an i7, 32 GB of RAM
and the built-in RAID with 2 Hybrid SATA drives set up as a mirror set.
Turns out my system ran the dev stack very well, but at a fraction of
the price.

Turns out the client engineering team figured you could spend your way
into any solution when you have enough money.




... Don't bite the hand that feeds you WiFi.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
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Re: Re: Toshiba Libretto
By: Tiny to Bob Worm on Mon Nov 06 2023 06:18 am

Laugh, I remember doing that as well! I switched to OS/2 right around that time because it worked better.

I really wanted to see OS/2 overtake Windows, but by the mid-90s, I think it was too late.

Nightfox

On 06 Nov 2023, Nightfox said the following...

Re: Re: Toshiba Libretto
By: Tiny to Bob Worm on Mon Nov 06 2023 06:18 am

Laugh, I remember doing that as well! I switched to OS/2 right aroun that time because it worked better.

I really wanted to see OS/2 overtake Windows, but by the mid-90s, I
think it was too late.

Yeah.. OS/2 Warp was basically Windows 2000 six years early..and sure enough by the time it got to Win2K service pack 2 or 3 I switched over to that
instead. The stability was just as good for me..

I kept trying to decide if I was going to say Windows 7 or XP was the last Windows I truly liked everything about the GUI.. but I hate them both lol. Win2K for life.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
* Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, mi (21:1/616)

Re: Re: OS/2
By: fusion to Nightfox on Mon Nov 06 2023 07:09 pm

Yeah.. OS/2 Warp was basically Windows 2000 six years early..and sure enough by the time it got to Win2K service pack 2 or 3 I switched over to that
instead. The stability was just as good for me..

I kept trying to decide if I was going to say Windows 7 or XP was the last Windows I truly liked everything about the GUI.. but I hate them both lol. Win2K for life.

I liked Win2K as well. But I did like Windows XP and Windows 7 too.. I kinda liked their UIs, though I did tend to disable the Windows Themes service and have the Windows UI look more like Win2K. I preferred not having so much resources taken by the UI. Though these days, I feel like operating system UIs look too flat and uninteresting.

Nightfox

I liked Win2K as well. But I did like Windows XP and Windows 7 too.. I kinda liked their UIs, though I did tend to disable the Windows Themes service and have the Windows UI look more like Win2K. I preferred not having so much resources taken by the UI. Though these days, I feel
like operating system UIs look too flat and uninteresting.

I don't know why, but for me, WinXP feels like the best GUI experience of any OS I've ever used. I loved XP. Perhaps it's just nostalgia but I really enjoyed using it and still like using it on one of my retro builds.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (21:4/173)

I don't know why, but for me, WinXP feels like the best GUI experience
of any OS I've ever used. I loved XP. Perhaps it's just nostalgia but I really enjoyed using it and still like using it on one of my retro
builds.

WinXP was OK, but after failed Vista I think W7 ultimately upgraded the original Windows experience to the maximum, before the've started screwing again.

I just touched Win 11 today for the first time in my life, for 2 minutes and I switched back to Mac... W10 was OK again... not so much big difference to me after W7.. it only fixed w8 badness in all front, nothing revolutionary and w11 is like poor's man macos with file explorer + browser integration brought back to windows again....

-h1

... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbS>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

fusion wrote to Nightfox <=-

I kept trying to decide if I was going to say Windows 7 or XP was the
last Windows I truly liked everything about the GUI.. but I hate them
both lol. Win2K for life.

I ran a stripped down version of Windows XP with no theming, no IE, not
much of anything - to run the BBS. It used the classic 2000 theme, that
was probably the most functional environment Microsoft came up with.

For eye candy value, Windows XP with Office XP for me - with the blue
theme and bliss background. Loved the look of Office XP, but it felt
like a redux of Office 2000 - didn't have Outlook offline support yet.

I may need to spin up another XP nostalgia VM.



... Change nothing and continue consistently
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

Re: Re: OS/2
By: esc to Nightfox on Mon Nov 06 2023 11:06 pm

I don't know why, but for me, WinXP feels like the best GUI experience of any OS I've ever used. I loved XP. Perhaps it's just nostalgia but I really enjoyed using it and still like using it on one of my retro builds.

I actually really liked Windows XP too. With its default UI theme, some people said they thought it looked too cartoony, and I can see why, but I think it has its appeal. I especially liked how the UI components looked, such as the buttons, sliders, etc..

Operating systems these days all have a more plain, flat UI. I feel like it's like they don't put any thought or effort into making the UI look good anymore.

Nightfox

Re: Re: OS/2
By: poindexter FORTRAN to fusion on Tue Nov 07 2023 07:42 am

I may need to spin up another XP nostalgia VM.

It's funny to think of Windows XP as nostalgia now. I remember using XP when it was brand new and thinking it was pretty cool.

Nightfox

It's funny to think of Windows XP as nostalgia now. I remember using XP when it was brand new and thinking it was pretty cool.

Chuckle, by the time XP fully expired I was still running 98... somewhere
along the lines I shifted to it, while it still had security updates but was
on the way out... It was a kind of spiffy dekstop... didn't use anything else until 7.... and only just last week made my first install of 10, to
accommodate steam, which #1 son keeps buying me odd things on... already in
he obsolete basket, not sure what its official expiry is.

Spec


*** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
--- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
* Origin: A camel is a horse designed by a committee. (21:3/101)

On 06 Nov 2023, esc said the following...

I don't know why, but for me, WinXP feels like the best GUI experience
of any OS I've ever used. I loved XP. Perhaps it's just nostalgia but I really enjoyed using it and still like using it on one of my retro
builds.

could probably still get away with using it for now.. if you used it as a X server along with a separate linux machine to send a browser and other software to it. that's how i ran gAIM (now Pidgin) on OS/2 for a while.

unfortunately wayland (or something else) might do away with that in the long run, but for now you could hold on :)

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
* Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, mi (21:1/616)

Nightfox wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

It's funny to think of Windows XP as nostalgia now. I remember using
XP when it was brand new and thinking it was pretty cool.

You're not alone. I remember when we had to phase Windows XP out, and we
had holdouts who preferred it to Windows 7.



... FOR SYSOP USE ONLY - Do not write below this line.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

Re: Re: OS/2
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Nightfox on Wed Nov 08 2023 06:30 am

It's funny to think of Windows XP as nostalgia now. I remember using XP
when it was brand new and thinking it was pretty cool.

You're not alone. I remember when we had to phase Windows XP out, and we had holdouts who preferred it to Windows 7.

I wasn't an XP holdout, as I liked WIndows 7 as well. But I think Windows XP was one of the best versions of Windows they produced.

Nightfox

Re: Re: OS/2
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Nightfox on Wed Nov 08 2023 06:30:00

Hi, Poindexter.

I remember when we had to phase Windows XP out, and we
had holdouts who preferred it to Windows 7.

Yep, I only moved off XP because I changed job. They forced me onto Windows 7 where I stayed for 5 years. Internal IT wanted me off that but never forced the issue - in the end I managed to quit before they made me update.

Thank goodness I've been able to use Mac since then. I actually struggle to use Windows, these days.

BobW
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: >>> Magnum BBS <<< - bbs.magnum.uk.net (21:1/205)

You're not alone. I remember when we had to phase Windows XP out, and we had holdouts who preferred it to Windows 7.

I didn't move to Win7 until Win7 was already obsolete... but thats largely driven by most of my 'pooty systems coming from the side of the road. I
didn't have the requirements to power Win7 until late in the game.

On a side note, its probably a symptom of declining PC sales in favour of
other platforms, but its getting to be difficult to find any kind of pooter
on the side of the road these days.

Spec


*** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
--- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
* Origin: A camel is a horse designed by a committee. (21:3/101)

WinXP was OK, but after failed Vista I think W7 ultimately upgraded the original Windows experience to the maximum, before the've started
screwing again.

Yeah, Win7 is my next favorite after XP. For some reason I'll always have a special place in my heart for XP.

I just touched Win 11 today for the first time in my life, for 2 minutes and I switched back to Mac... W10 was OK again... not so much big difference to me after W7.. it only fixed w8 badness in all front,
nothing revolutionary and w11 is like poor's man macos with file
explorer + browser integration brought back to windows again....

Win11 was very frustrating for me. I use linux as a daily driver but I do have a gaming rig which has Windows installed. I tried Win11 on it and was very frustrated, ended up wiping everything and installing Win10. Win11 feels like Win10 with built-in adware constantly bothering you. Why should a commercial OS show you ads!?

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (21:4/173)

Operating systems these days all have a more plain, flat UI. I feel
like it's like they don't put any thought or effort into making the UI look good anymore.

I do like some aspects of this. For example I use KDE Plasma as my DE on my daily driver linux laptop, and I love it. I have everything set to dark mode but beyond that most things are plain OOTB settings. It feels like a very natural and complete UX to me.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (21:4/173)

Re: Re: OS/2
By: esc to Nightfox on Wed Nov 08 2023 05:03 pm

Operating systems these days all have a more plain, flat UI. I feel
like it's like they don't put any thought or effort into making the UI
look good anymore.

I do like some aspects of this. For example I use KDE Plasma as my DE on my daily driver linux laptop, and I love it. I have everything set to dark mode but beyond that most things are plain OOTB settings. It feels like a very natural and complete UX to me.

One thing I dislike about it is that the UI elements don't quite look like what they should be. For instance, buttons are just plain rectangles - It could be hard to tell if it's actually a button or just an area where a message might appear. Without some simulated texture (or depth), I just don't think the UI looks as good as GUIs in years past.

Nightfox

Quoting Nightfox to Fusion <=-

preferred not having so much resources taken by the UI. Though these days, I feel like operating system UIs look too flat and
uninteresting.

100% agree. We can thank mobile devices for the idiotic UI's of desktop computers today. Ugh.

~Elf

Visit our 1990's Web Site:
http://lifeseven.com/1990s


... "What?!? This isn't the Files section?!?"
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
* Origin: Diamond Mine Online BBS 21:1/194 bbs.dmine.net:24 (21:1/194)

100% agree. We can thank mobile devices for the idiotic UI's of desktop computers today. Ugh.

You can probably also add a decline in pooty sales to that too. The long
shop, (side of the road) has gotten very sparse in computers over the last
few years. I suspect the only main to groups still buying are corporate and game boys...

I also see the same taking place in second hand stores here too... they used
to have a pretty good supply of relatively overpriced stuff but pretty much nada now.

If pooty sales are slowly going down the tube, then its probably not worth dollar wise putting the effort into making them pretty.

Spec


*** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
--- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
* Origin: A camel is a horse designed by a committee. (21:3/101)

On 08 Nov 2023, esc said the following...

Operating systems these days all have a more plain, flat UI. I feel like it's like they don't put any thought or effort into making the U look good anymore.

I do like some aspects of this. For example I use KDE Plasma as my DE on my daily driver linux laptop, and I love it. I have everything set to
dark mode but beyond that most things are plain OOTB settings. It feels like a very natural and complete UX to me.

i do like KDE Plasma.. and i use it on my laptop because there are some random things you do with laptops that you just don't do with a desktop.. mainly a variety of screen mirroring, flash drive swapping, internet troubleshooting (cat5 cord direct to router) sort of shenanegans that i just don't want to "taint" with having to tinker with linux.. nothing worse than futzing with xrandr and mount while your friends wait patiently, just to watch a movie.

for my main desktop though, http://kirin.dcclost.com/~alex/fsx_rc.png

basically stripped to the bones :) and very much how i remember linux as a
sort of pick-and-choose random pile of software

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
* Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, mi (21:1/616)

Re: Re: OS/2
By: Elf to NIGHTFOX on Thu Nov 09 2023 11:15:00

Hi, Elf.

100% agree. We can thank mobile devices for the idiotic UI's of desktop computers today. Ugh.

Yes, I remember being given a Windows mobile for work. An authentic Windows experience, it spent the first afternoon applying patches before I could even use it and would occasionally reboot just before a key meeting to install updates as well... That had the "new", "modern" tiled appearance.

The next thing I know, Windows 8 is being rolled out and it looks exactly like the phone. Supposedly it's all geared around being able to use proper Windows on a touchscreen / tablet. Gross.

I spent the next 6 months ignoring ever grumpier e-mails from IT telling me I needed to be "upgraded" to Windows 8. Eventually I managed to inherit a Mac from someone else who left the company and then ultimately resigned myself. I've still not had to face the prospect of working on any version above 7.

BobW
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: >>> Magnum BBS <<< - bbs.magnum.uk.net (21:1/205)

Spectre wrote to Elf <=-

You can probably also add a decline in pooty sales to that too. The
long shop, (side of the road) has gotten very sparse in computers over
the last few years. I suspect the only main to groups still buying are corporate and game boys...

I (sort of) noticed this where I work. When I started, in the late 1990s,
most of my coworkers didn't have computers at home. The users were having issues hiring people who could use one to access the systems.

Between then and now, that changed. Coworkers had computers, and the users were having trouble finding people who knew how to use a system that was
not all point and click because Windows ruled the home market.

Now, it is getting back to coworkers that don't have computers, and users having trouble finding people who can interact with a computer, because everyone uses their phones. Social media access rules the market.

That last bit has come to light now that the systems are being upgraded to
be all point and click. The new user hires don't know how to do even that.


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for my main desktop though, http://kirin.dcclost.com/~alex/fsx_rc.png

That's pretty cool. I've always had respect for Slackware, it was one of my original linux distros way back in the day. I had no idea there was an OS/2 Warp DE :P

basically stripped to the bones :) and very much how i remember linux as
a sort of pick-and-choose random pile of software

Yeah, for a while I was going super minimal. I made an Openbox desktop with a panel and a right click menu and that was basically it. I enjoyed setting it up but it was missing some QOL features so I ended up just giving Plasma a shot. Turns out Plasma doesn't eat up much more RAM than running a super minimal Openbox, so... *shrug* here I am hehe

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (21:4/173)

The next thing I know, Windows 8 is being rolled out and it looks
exactly like the phone. Supposedly it's all geared around being able to use proper Windows on a touchscreen / tablet. Gross.

This reminds me of the Enlightenment window manager for linux. E back in the day was sharp, and I really liked it and found it to be a standout. Then, they made design decisions to prepare it for mobile computing, and that really changed the trajectory of the look and feel of E. It changed it so drastically I actually gave up on using it years ago. I wonder what would have happened had they not made that pivot back then.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (21:4/173)

On 10 Nov 2023, esc said the following...

for my main desktop though, http://kirin.dcclost.com/~alex/fsx_rc.png

That's pretty cool. I've always had respect for Slackware, it was one of my original linux distros way back in the day. I had no idea there was
an OS/2 Warp DE :P

it's actually Enlightenment e16. the original team spun it off and maintain it because a lot of people still use it. then i just used the warp4 theme.

basically stripped to the bones :) and very much how i remember linux a sort of pick-and-choose random pile of software

Yeah, for a while I was going super minimal. I made an Openbox desktop with a panel and a right click menu and that was basically it. I enjoyed setting it up but it was missing some QOL features so I ended up just giving Plasma a shot. Turns out Plasma doesn't eat up much more RAM than running a super minimal Openbox, so... *shrug* here I am hehe

yeah, it's actually quite impressive .. can only talk about KDE because i haven't used a modern version of gnome or whatever is hip for a really long time.. but that "huge amount of ram!!" that i remember is quite well contained.

maybe it always was and i only had puny machines :)

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Re: Re: OS/2
By: esc to Bob Worm on Fri Nov 10 2023 02:57 pm

This reminds me of the Enlightenment window manager for linux. E back in the day was sharp, and I really liked it and found it to be a standout. Then, they made design decisions to prepare it for mobile computing, and that really changed the trajectory of the look and feel of E. It changed

E reminded me of Litestep for Windows. I started using it looking for a lower-overhead environment for my BBS, and ended up endlessly tweaking it to make a custom environment for my laptop. I wish I could find the theme I had, I loved it, but ended up spending more time tweaking it than using my laptop. :)

...Am I any closer to finding what I'm looking for?
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Quoting Spectre to Elf <=-

You can probably also add a decline in pooty sales to that too. The
long shop, (side of the road) has gotten very sparse in computers over
the last few years. I suspect the only main to groups still buying are corporate and game boys...

If pooty sales are slowly going down the tube, then its probably not
worth dollar wise putting the effort into making them pretty.

I can see that as the short-term vision but even as mobile devices get
more powerful, they still require an interface. And while I know the
interface needs to be a little different on the phone and tablets due to
screen real estate restrictions, these phones are becoming so powerful
they will subplant the PC someday. My current Moto G100 gets plugged
into a 24 inch screen and paired with a mouse and keyboard now and then
for a full desktop like experience (Ready For, much like Samsungs DEX
but in my opinion better than Samsung's implementation). But, still, we
need buttons that look like buttons, not just rectangles on the screen.
We need clear deliniation between pages and fields and other elements
that we put data into in order to make sense of it and in order to
*interface* with it. Hopefully we'll get our interface elements back at
some point.

~Elf

Visit our 1990's Web Site:
http://lifeseven.com/1990s


... I haven't lost my mind; it's backed up on tape somewhere!
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E reminded me of Litestep for Windows. I started using it looking for a lower-overhead environment for my BBS, and ended up endlessly tweaking
it to make a custom environment for my laptop. I wish I could find the theme I had, I loved it, but ended up spending more time tweaking it
than using my laptop. :)

That's how I was for a long time :P Now I just settle into comfy KDE Plasma and call it a day.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (21:4/173)

esc wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

That's how I was for a long time :P Now I just settle into comfy KDE Plasma and call it a day.

I'm planning a day in the office sometime soon. Part of my agenda is to download all new ISOs for every distro and *BSD and not soak my cable
internet connection as I'm interested in trying out KDE - I think it's
been 20 years!

I found a local ISP that has a colo facility with a great looking space, complimentary coffee services and an organic cafe onsite, 9-5 for
$89/week. I'm tempted to convince my boss to pay for a week to get me
out of the house and onto a fast upload connection, as I need to
occasionally upload big blocks of data to our datacenter in Houston.

If so, I could skip the round-trip to a company office.



... SURELY NOT EVERYONE WAS KUNG FU FIGHTING
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Quoting Bob Worm to Elf <=-

100% agree. We can thank mobile devices for the idiotic UI's of desktop computers today. Ugh.

Yes, I remember being given a Windows mobile for work. An authentic Windows experience, it spent the first afternoon applying patches
before I could even use it and would occasionally reboot just before a
key meeting to install updates as well... That had the "new", "modern" tiled appearance.
The next thing I know, Windows 8 is being rolled out and it looks
exactly like the phone. Supposedly it's all geared around being able
to use proper Windows on a touchscreen / tablet. Gross.
I spent the next 6 months ignoring ever grumpier e-mails from IT
telling me I needed to be "upgraded" to Windows 8. Eventually I
managed to inherit a Mac from someone else who left the company and
then ultimately resigned myself. I've still not had to face the
prospect of working on any version above 7.

I ran on Apple's ecosystem from 2004 to 2015. I had the iPhones and the
Macs. It was a fun time. Since 2015 I have been running on Linux for my desktop. I have mostly stuck with the Ubuntu base. I started with XFCE (Xubuntu) then moved to KDE (Kubuntu) then Q4OS (Debian + KDE 3.5x
Fork) but have ultimately settled on Linux Mint Cinnamon where I feel
most at home and where the little details are thought of - reminds me
how the Mac always paid attention to the little details. If there were
less little issues with Q4OS (using TDE or Trinity Desktop Environment,
aka a fork of KDE 3.5) I would have loved to have stuck with that one.
But, I found myself fixing too many things too many times. But what I
loved about it, is buttons were clearly buttons, borders around windows
clearly were visible, etc. I like having an interface I can see. :-)

Linux Mint Cinnamon does a pretty good job of being a desktop OS and not
trying to merge a desktop UI with a tablet or phone UI.

~Elf

Visit our 1990's Web Site:
http://lifeseven.com/1990s


... Why does a ship carry cargo and a truck carry shipments?
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Quoting Blue White to Spectre <=-

That last bit has come to light now that the systems are being
upgraded to be all point and click. The new user hires don't know how
to do even that.

Just attach a touch screen to their work PC. Then they can poke and
swipe on the screen all day long and figure it out. <haha>

~Elf

Visit our 1990's Web Site:
http://lifeseven.com/1990s


... Live: Know the past, help the present, touch the future.
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Re: Re: OS/2
By: Elf to BOB WORM on Sat Nov 11 2023 14:40:00

Hi, Elf.

But, I found myself fixing too many things too many times. But what I
loved about it, is buttons were clearly buttons, borders around windows clearly were visible, etc. I like having an interface I can see. :-)

This is why I switched from Linux as a daily OS to Mac - everything just works and I still have a proper shell. Except some very nerdy stuff where I need to fall back to Linux, which I can do by tunneling X Windows through SSH.

The GUI elements are very consistent on Mac so they look like what they are to me, possibly I've just got used to them. I don't miss the window borders, they remind me of clunky old Windows versions and for me they're wasted space - I do get annoyed by the rounded corners on Mac Windows, though - sometimes it eats into the content of the window which is... kind of unforgivable!

For some strange reason I'm fascinated by the way screen grabbing a full window also grabs the window's shadow, complete with alpha channel. It does look nice when you put the image into documentation, though.

BobW
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Re: Re: OS/2
By: Bob Worm to Elf on Sun Nov 12 2023 08:55 am

But, I found myself fixing too many things too many times. But what I loved
about it, is buttons were clearly buttons, borders around windows clearly
were visible, etc. I like having an interface I can see. :-)

This is why I switched from Linux as a daily OS to Mac - everything just works and I still have a proper shell. Except some very nerdy stuff where I need to fall back to Linux, which I can do by tunneling X Windows through SSH.

I've used Mac OS before, mostly for work, and in my experience, not everything just works all the time. I use Linux Mint at home for my BBS PC (I also run Plex Media Server on it), and things have pretty much always worked there for me. Even upgrades to new versions of the OS have always gone fairly smoothly.

Nightfox

Re: Re: OS/2
By: Nightfox to Bob Worm on Sun Nov 12 2023 12:19:40

Hi, Nightfox.

I've used Mac OS before, mostly for work, and in my experience, not everything just works all the time. I use Linux Mint at home for my BBS PC (I also run Plex Media Server on it), and things have pretty much always worked there for me. Even upgrades to new versions of the OS have always gone fairly smoothly.

Yeah, I will admit that upgrading my iMac to Big Sur absolutely screwed it. The in-place upgrade completely failed to the point where it couldn't boot and a from-scratch install was basically unusable. I legitimately thought something was physically wrong with it, perhaps the hard drive was about to fail or similar, but after abandoning it for a good while I wiped it clean and installed Ventura. Incredibly, it works like new again. Very strange...

To be fair, that's the only issue I've ever had but it was a biggie. As opposed to the continuous stream of minor niggles I had trying to use Linux as a desktop OS.

BobW
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Yeah, I will admit that upgrading my iMac to Big Sur absolutely screwed it. The in-place upgrade completely failed to the point where it couldn't boot and a from-scratch install was basically unusable. I legitimately

For a while there Apple seemed to have taken the play book from MicroSloth,
and what I tend to find happens to Ubuntu uprades for me... abject faliure...

Spec


*** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
--- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
* Origin: A camel is a horse designed by a committee. (21:3/101)

Hello Bob,

12 Nov 23 08:55, you wrote to Elf:

But, I found myself fixing too many things too many times. But what
I loved about it, is buttons were clearly buttons, borders around
windows clearly were visible, etc. I like having an interface I can
see. :-)

This is why I switched from Linux as a daily OS to Mac - everything
just works and I still have a proper shell. Except some very nerdy
stuff where I need to fall back to Linux, which I can do by tunneling
X Windows through SSH.

The GUI elements are very consistent on Mac so they look like what
they are to me, possibly I've just got used to them. I don't miss the window borders, they remind me of clunky old Windows versions and for
me they're wasted space - I do get annoyed by the rounded corners on
Mac Windows, though - sometimes it eats into the content of the window which is... kind of unforgivable!

For some strange reason I'm fascinated by the way screen grabbing a
full window also grabs the window's shadow, complete with alpha
channel. It does look nice when you put the image into documentation, though.

+1, OSX is the best *nix desktop

Regards,
--
dp

telnet://bbs.roonsbbs.hu:1212 <<=-

... Uptime: 0d 12h 8m 45s
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This reminds me of the Enlightenment window manager for linux. E back in the day was sharp, and I really liked it and found it to be a standout.

Yep, I remember how much I was impressed by E back in the 90s with its 0.15 version if I recall it well.

Then I considered it long dead to consider that the project continued but already on visually rich world of direct competitors

But yeah, I have fond memories of E from the past as well!

-h1

... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

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-=[ On 11-06-23 08:55, Nightfox wrote to Tiny below: ]=-
-=[ Re: OS/2 ]=-

Hi Nightfox!

Laugh, I remember doing that as well! I switched to OS/2 right around that time because it worked better.

I really wanted to see OS/2 overtake Windows, but by the mid-90s, I
think it was too late.

I did too, ran OS/2 for my bbsing and sysop needs with dialup at that time.. I use Mac as my daily driver and only have Win11 in Parallels for those things that needs full blown Windows otherwise for the odd Windows game I play through Crossover.

Cheers,
Bryan
bhandfield(at)me(dot)com

... Everyone as they loveth, some people kiss cows.
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