Adept wrote to Dr. What <=-

Incompetent company, but not sure how they were "woke".

That's based on statements by the company president.

They're just another startup,

Who's company president publically stated that he wanted a diverse group of employees instead of competant people (i.e. old white men).

As an aside, to me "woke" is an extremely political term, so please be careful with using it, as this is not the place for such discussions.

Political or not, it was part of this situation and should not be ignored.

Too often certain people don't want the term "woke" to be applied to failures even when it's clear that the failure was caused by woke ideology.


... Life is short, eat dessert first.
___ MultiMail/Linux v0.52

--- Mystic BBS/QWK v1.12 A48 (Windows/64)
* Origin: Capital Station BBS * Telnet://csbbs.dyndns.org * (21:1/127)

Re: Re: Submarine Deaths
By: paulie420 to HusTler on Fri Jun 23 2023 04:33 pm

I think the true cause was exploration... the attempt to push boundaries, of epths for decades... and safely - the Adam submarine has went down to the Ti ight and CERTIFICATION.

TBH there are plenty manufacturing plants with all their safety papers and certifications in order that seem to me to be running on 3rd world standards.

There are lots of things that are not recognized as valid ways of doing things according to the letter of reglaments and still engineers have been doing them for decades for great effect.

I mean, when I was doing subjects related to structure engineering at college, we would get our Technical Edification Code books and the teacher would have us rip chapters out because those would get people killed.

The real ticket is knowing what you are doing and testing it - because sometimes you think you know more than you do and stuff crashes. This is, there has to be some procedure. That does not mean that official certifications are the best procedure, IMO. THey are just the ones that cover your ass, because if you build something using an official standard and it crashes, they can't sue you so easily because it is all 100% legal.

IMO it is fine to let people try dangeour stuff if they like. Even in the worst case scenario, society learns something. If your submarine gets smashed we already know of a way not to build submarines anymore.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

Re: Re: Submarine Deaths
By: tenser to disconnex on Sun Jun 25 2023 08:24 am

Andrew's point about _why_ people may want to visit the
Titanic seems sound to me, but that it costs a quarter
of a million US to go still seems kind of macabre.

Visiting the Titanic sounds to me a lot like visiting a castle or something. It is a visit of Historic interest. Some castles that are open to visitors have dungeons in which they let the corpses of prisoners pile up until there was a layer of 1.5 meters of dead people and for some reason nobody thinks visiting such places is macabre.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

careful with using it, as this is not the place for such discussions.

Political or not, it was part of this situation and should not be
ignored.

Here it absolutely should be. FSXnet is a no-politics, no-religion zone for good reason.

Too often certain people don't want the term "woke" to be applied to failures even when it's clear that the failure was caused by woke ideology.

They failed to hire or listen to people who could've made it safer. That's the failure.

Them getting a diverse workforce should help them with dealing with blindspots that might be there if they just hire all tech bros. If they _didn't_ hire old, white, experienced guys, they failed at getting a diverse workforce.

But, again, I don't actually want this discussion; I want to not discuss "woke" things in a no-politics zone.

Sure, the topics are important; so are politics and religion, in general. But that's what Fidonet or Dovenet are for. Here is the reprieve from those topics.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

Founder, such a strange word. It means to fail (which is a
negative thing)..
Yet is also means to create (which is a positive thing)..

Another for the fascinating list of auto-antonyms!

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

open to visitors have dungeons in which they let the corpses of
prisoners pile up until there was a layer of 1.5 meters of dead people
and for some reason nobody thinks visiting such places is macabre.

I like visiting cemeteries. It's probably a _bit_ macabre.

That said, I think a dungeon with a layer of 1.5 meters of dead people would absolutely be macabre.

As would the death mask on a sarcophagus where it looks skeletal or like a necromancer, which I saw fairly recently.

Still fascinating, though.

I'm guessing I'd never want to visit the Titanic, even if free and in a reliable and spacious submersible, but if it were more like a, "walk through and see this, in and out in 20 minutes", yeah, I absolutely would, and take pictures.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

Adept wrote to Dr. What <=-

If they
_didn't_ hire old, white, experienced guys, they failed at getting a diverse workforce.

Which, IMHO, is what makes them "woke" (trying to make it look like they
are doing the right thing and wanting attention for it) vs. actually doing
the right thing. While, in many cases, that could involve some stance that
is political or politicized, it does not have to.

I have the unverified impression that they may used "diversity" as an
excuse to avoid hiring people with more experience who might tell them that their ideas were bad.



... The number you have dailed...Nine-one-one...has been changed.
--- MultiMail/DOS
* Origin: possumso.fsxnet.nz * SSH:2122/telnet:24/ftelnet:80 (21:4/134)

Re: Re: Submarine Deaths
By: Adept to Arelor on Mon Jun 26 2023 02:24 pm

That said, I think a dungeon with a layer of 1.5 meters of dead people would

I meant they let corpses pile up in the pass, centuries ago. Then they converted the room into a souvenir store.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

That said, I think a dungeon with a layer of 1.5 meters of dead people

I meant they let corpses pile up in the pass, centuries ago. Then they converted the room into a souvenir store.

...yep, totally not macabre at all.

Along that line, in Münster there's a cage or two hanging up high from a church, that's been there for a few hundred years, and was used to display what happens to the out-of-favor people.

I had heard of that, but only later found out that it was used _once_, and for people who had ruled Münster for all of a year.

And it seems a little macabre to have this thing hanging up high for everyone to see, for hundreds of years, and people don't seem especially bothered by any meaning to it all.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

Which is a fascinating topic. It's why, when tornado sirens go off,
people start asking each other if everything is okay, etc., rather than doing the safe thing.

Reminds me of being deployed and hearing the "incoming!" sirens go off and just continuing going about my business.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (21:4/173)

Who's company president publically stated that he wanted a diverse group of employees instead of competant people (i.e. old white men).

I think you're mischaracterizing why he picked the people he did. He just didn't want old dudes piloting this thing because he didn't think it would excite people.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (21:4/173)

esc wrote to Dr. What <=-

Who's company president publically stated that he wanted a diverse group of employees instead of competant people (i.e. old white men).

I think you're mischaracterizing why he picked the people he did. He
just didn't want old dudes piloting this thing because he didn't think
it would excite people.

I did not mischaracterize anything. He wanted diversity over competence.


... How do you keep a turkey in suspense?
___ MultiMail/Linux v0.52

--- Mystic BBS/QWK v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
* Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, mi (21:1/616)

I did not mischaracterize anything. He wanted diversity over competence.

Fun facts for ya

Navy sub captains are typically under or around 30.

All of the top leadership at the company were over 50.

The guy piloting the sub, the CEO, was 61.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (21:4/173)

esc wrote to Dr. What <=-

I did not mischaracterize anything. He wanted diversity over competence.

Fun facts for ya

Navy sub captains are typically under or around 30.

Ummmmm..... no. Closer to 40 than 30. It also varies by submarine
type, where an "attack" sub is commanded by a Navy Commander (rank O-5),
but the "missile" subs are commanded by a Navy Captain (rank O-6). You
do not reach those ranks by age 30, ever. Most Commanders are late
30's, and most Captains are early/mid 40's.

Background - I did 28 years in the Navy, and served on a submarine
briefly in my early career. :-)

All of the top leadership at the company were over 50.
The guy piloting the sub, the CEO, was 61.

No argument with any of that.



... Freedom isn't free.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

Ummmmm..... no. Closer to 40 than 30. It also varies by submarine
type, where an "attack" sub is commanded by a Navy Commander (rank O-5), but the "missile" subs are commanded by a Navy Captain (rank O-6). You do not reach those ranks by age 30, ever. Most Commanders are late
30's, and most Captains are early/mid 40's.

Fair enough :) But still not super old white dudes.

However I'm friends with a former nuclear sub XO and he said that for the most part, sub crews are very young. He was in his 20s as XO.

Background - I did 28 years in the Navy, and served on a submarine briefly in my early career. :-)

Thanks for your service!

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (21:4/173)

esc wrote to Gamgee <=-

Ummmmm..... no. Closer to 40 than 30. It also varies by submarine
type, where an "attack" sub is commanded by a Navy Commander (rank O-5), but the "missile" subs are commanded by a Navy Captain (rank O-6). You
do not reach those ranks by age 30, ever. Most Commanders are late
30's, and most Captains are early/mid 40's.

Fair enough :) But still not super old white dudes.

Agreed!

However I'm friends with a former nuclear sub XO and he said that
for the most part, sub crews are very young. He was in his 20s as
XO.

I've got to say that I find that hard to believe... I mean, do the
math... Graduate college at 22, and 6-7 years later you're an LCDR
(O-4) in the Navy, and have completed Nuke school, Division Officer and
Dept Head tours, screened for XO, and become an XO? I'm sorry but it's
really not possible.


... Error reading REALITY.SYS - Solar System halted.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

Ogg wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

Yet is also means to create (which is a positive thing)..

A person who founds or establishes some institution

It's an auto-antonym! A word that means one meaning and its opposite.

Like Home-bound.



... A NEW LIFE AWAITS YOU IN THE OFF-WORLD COLONIES!
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

Blue White wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

IndyCar car body parts are made of carbon fibre because it shatters on impact and dissapates energy.

I would think metal crumple zones would do a better job, but they're
designed to be thin, not safe.




... IN CASE OF EMERGENCY DIAL 0118 999 881 999 119 725 3
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

Blue White wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

I saw that also. Interesting hypothesis. I don't know about the bow
of the Titanic, but I think the bows of some ships are designed to be
more sturdy than other parts of he hull.

The titanic had watertight compartments, and so flooding on a head-on
collision would have been much less than the glancing blow that opened
several compartments to the sea. Makes sense theoretically.

They had examples of boats that had survived during similar head-on
collisions, but you need to be aware of survivorship bias.

There's a story about bomber designers looking at damage patterns of US
bombers during WW II. There were definite patterns of bullet holes in
surviving airplanes that they wanted to go ahead and re-inforce. One of
the engineers said they needed to look at the areas that *didn't* get
hit, hypothesizing that the ones that were hit in those areas didn't
make it back.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias



... Walk without rhythm and you won't attact the worm.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

Adept wrote to Dr. What <=-

Well, aside from, "She woke with a start, her pleasant dream imploding like a rich man's carbon-fiber submersible.".

Sounds like a novel idea.



... I used to play with Serious Putty.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Blue White <=-

There's a story about bomber designers looking at damage patterns of US bombers during WW II. There were definite patterns of bullet holes in surviving airplanes that they wanted to go ahead and re-inforce. One of the engineers said they needed to look at the areas that *didn't* get
hit, hypothesizing that the ones that were hit in those areas didn't
make it back.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias

That makes sense to me. If the holes on planes that made it back were not enough to bring them down, I would think looking were they were not hit and figuring out why those areas might make a plane more vulnerable would make sense.


... Computer Hacker wanted. Must have own axe.
--- MultiMail/DOS
* Origin: possumso.fsxnet.nz * SSH:2122/telnet:24/ftelnet:80 (21:4/134)

Gamgee wrote to esc <=-

All of the top leadership at the company were over 50.
The guy piloting the sub, the CEO, was 61.

No argument with any of that.

I wonder what experience he had.




... DalekDOS v(overflow): (I)Obey (V)ision impaired (E)xterminate
--- MultiMail/DOS
* Origin: possumso.fsxnet.nz * SSH:2122/telnet:24/ftelnet:80 (21:4/134)

Blue White wrote to Gamgee <=-

All of the top leadership at the company were over 50.
The guy piloting the sub, the CEO, was 61.

No argument with any of that.

I wonder what experience he had.

Not completely sure, but I think he (the CEO) was generally the pilot of
the sub on previous missions.



... What hair color do they put on the driver's licenses of bald men?
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

Gamgee wrote to Blue White <=-

I wonder what experience he had.

Not completely sure, but I think he (the CEO) was generally the pilot
of the sub on previous missions.

Yeah, I was thinking before that. Like was he in the Navy and on a sub, or
did he work for other companies/government organizations that do deep sea exploration?

Guess I am looking for experience that should have taught him not to skimp
on safety and/or inspect the equipment more often.



... How do you tell when you're out of invisible ink?
--- MultiMail/DOS
* Origin: possumso.fsxnet.nz * SSH:2122/telnet:24/ftelnet:80 (21:4/134)

Blue White wrote to Gamgee <=-

I wonder what experience he had.

Not completely sure, but I think he (the CEO) was generally the pilot
of the sub on previous missions.

Yeah, I was thinking before that. Like was he in the Navy and on
a sub, or did he work for other companies/government
organizations that do deep sea exploration?

Guess I am looking for experience that should have taught him not
to skimp on safety and/or inspect the equipment more often.

He grew up a rich kid, expensive education, was mostly in
aviation/aerospace before this OceanGate thing. No real knowledge or experience. He ignored a lot of rules and skimped on a lot of things.
He and four others are now dead because of it.

Here's more on him:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockton_Rush



... All the easy problems have been solved.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

esc wrote to Dr. What <=-

I did not mischaracterize anything. He wanted diversity over competence.

Fun facts for ya

You mean "fun facts that are irrelevant".


... Do not merely believe in miracles, rely on them.
___ MultiMail/Linux v0.52

--- Mystic BBS/QWK v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
* Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, mi (21:1/616)

Hello pF!

** On Monday 26.06.23 - 06:33, poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Ogg:

It's an auto-antonym! A word that means one meaning and its opposite.

First time I hear of auto-antonyms.

Like Home-bound.

I thought that was house-bound. And from where I come from,
that means limited or restricted within one's home. Where-as
your example means "on the way home".


--- OpenXP 5.0.57
* Origin: fsxnet/2 (21:3/110.10)

Like Home-bound.

I thought that was house-bound. And from where I come from,
that means limited or restricted within one's home. Where-as
your example means "on the way home".

I do think that it comes from, "I'm homeward bound", and people shortened it to "homebound", but I see that if you look at the lyrics for A Thousand Miles by Vanessa Carlton (which I guess I hadn't heard of, but evidently have heard the song), she uses "homebound" in this sense.

But I'm sure Poindexter Fortran uses it in both senses. I'm not sure if I use it _at all_, though I do remember church things, e.g. pastor visitation or caroling, where there was mention of people that were homebound.

But, yeah, I imagine that context is generally fairly clear on whether or not a person is already home.

Still, etymology and linguistics are fun.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)