Been reading the posts about screens in vehicles vs physical buttons, and saw an ABC news reel last night speaking about the automatic braking features of 2023+ vehicles...

This sounds great and all right??

Do ya'll know about the 2026 infrastructure bill, and some of what it demanding auto-makers to incorporate into their vehicles? One 'feature' is BAC volume detection - vehicles will have to passively detect blood alchohol levels of drivers, passengers and m0re...

Ford and Volvo are already implementing these 'features' in 2o24. Their steering wheels will automatically detect the BAC of drivers; ok, that sounds smart, right???? Errrhmmmm... maybe not so much. Volvo will also detect alchohol content in the AIR of their customers vehicles - wait, this is starting to feel a little weird, right???

The vehicles will turn off, or otherwise incapacitate the driver from... driving. What if yer camping; all people present have been drinking, but theres an emergency that requires driving?

Or - so many other instances... what if the technology 'detects' alchohol, but its not... we all have that driver in our circle that presses the gas too much, or otherwise drives in a way that we think is... silly.

Whats the bar? Where does it stop? The auto manufacturers say they'll implement interior cameras in vehicles... will these be detecting 'suspicious' activity? Where does the data go?

This is in the 'infrastructure bill' that team Biden has put into place... it takes hold in 2026, but Ford & Volvo are bringing technology as soon as NEXT YEAR...

NEVER, NO, STOP - f you.



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

paulie420 wrote to All <=-

Ford and Volvo are already implementing these 'features' in 2o24. Their steering wheels will automatically detect the BAC of drivers; ok, that sounds smart, right???? Errrhmmmm... maybe not so much. Volvo will also detect alchohol content in the AIR of their customers vehicles - wait, this is starting to feel a little weird, right???

The vehicles will turn off, or otherwise incapacitate the driver
from... driving. What if yer camping; all people present have been drinking, but theres an emergency that requires driving?

If it is detecting alcohol in the air, then the scenario I would wonder
about is the designated driver. I can remember several times in my youth
where I was driving sober but had 3 or 4 drunks in the car.

I also got to wonder about the recent pandemic and how people are now using hand sanitizer a lot. I usually put some on my hands as soon as I get in
the car after being out somewhere (work, store). So I touch the wheel and
what is going to happen?

Whats the bar? Where does it stop? The auto manufacturers say they'll implement interior cameras in vehicles... will these be detecting 'suspicious' activity? Where does the data go?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

That is a big question. Maybe Ford and Volvo have decided that Apple and Google should not be having all the fun when it comes to spying on their
users. Big brother is watching. <angry face>


... Tell me, is something eluding you, Sunshine?
--- MultiMail/DOS
* Origin: possumso.fsxnet.nz * SSH:2122/telnet:24/ftelnet:80 (21:4/134)

paulie420 wrote to All <=-

Ford and Volvo are already implementing these 'features' in 2o24. Their steering wheels will automatically detect the BAC of drivers; ok, that sounds smart, right???? Errrhmmmm... maybe not so much. Volvo will also detect alchohol content in the AIR of their customers vehicles - wait, this is starting to feel a little weird, right???

I'd be leery of the air detection model - the idea we're shooting for is
that a sober driver transports a car full of drunk people, right?




... See you on the other side.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

Hello poindexter FORTRAN!

** On Friday 02.06.23 - 07:08, poindexter FORTRAN wrote to paulie420:

sounds smart, right???? Errrhmmmm... maybe not so much. Volvo will also
detect alchohol content in the AIR of their customers vehicles - wait,
this is starting to feel a little weird, right???

I'd be leery of the air detection model - the idea we're shooting for is that a sober driver transports a car full of drunk people, right?

That wouldn't bode well for taxi drivers in the business of
transporting drunks around.


--- OpenXP 5.0.57
* Origin: (} Pointy McPointFace (21:4/106.21)

Re: 2026 Infrastructure Bill in US; self-driving+
By: paulie420 to All on Thu Jun 01 2023 09:41 pm

Been reading the posts about screens in vehicles vs physical buttons, and sa

Go on a customer strike and buy none of that crap intul automakers are forced to buy the correct politicians.

On the other hand, you can argue that is what they want since they want you not to have a car anymore.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

[2026 infrastructure bill plans for BAC detention in vehicles]

Whats the bar? Where does it stop? The auto manufacturers say they'll implement interior cameras in vehicles... will these be detecting 'suspicious' activity? Where does the data go?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

That is a big question. Maybe Ford and Volvo have decided that Apple and Google should not be having all the fun when it comes to spying on their users. Big brother is watching. <angry face>

Bingo... and how much data, what data and to whom? *Any* of which would be a huge fail.



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

Ford and Volvo are already implementing these 'features' in 2o24. The steering wheels will automatically detect the BAC of drivers; ok, tha sounds smart, right???? Errrhmmmm... maybe not so much. Volvo will al detect alchohol content in the AIR of their customers vehicles - wait this is starting to feel a little weird, right???

I'd be leery of the air detection model - the idea we're shooting for is that a sober driver transports a car full of drunk people, right?

Possibly... what if yer on your property of 100 acres, been drinking heavily and your wife has a heart attack - you have to get them to the edge of your gated property to meet the ambulance. Or, a myriad of other scenarios. This, also, doesn't account for the data collection side of things and where that data is being collected and whom has access to it - it all just stinks to hell.



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

On 03 Jun 2023, paulie420 said the following...

Possibly... what if yer on your property of 100 acres, been drinking heavily and your wife has a heart attack - you have to get them to the edge of your gated property to meet the ambulance. Or, a myriad of other scenarios. This, also, doesn't account for the data collection side of things and where that data is being collected and whom has access to it
- it all just stinks to hell.

indeed on private property you can drink and drive without a license in an unregistered car if you want.

though i think at that point, given it'd likely be pretty rural and you'd want to go for the country boy theme, you might not buy a modern car for blasting around corners flinging mud ;)

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
* Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, mi (21:1/616)

poindexter FORTRAN wrote to paulie420 <=-

paulie420 wrote to All <=-

Ford and Volvo are already implementing these 'features' in 2o24. Their steering wheels will automatically detect the BAC of drivers; ok, that sounds smart, right???? Errrhmmmm... maybe not so much. Volvo will also detect alchohol content in the AIR of their customers vehicles - wait, this is starting to feel a little weird, right???

I'd be leery of the air detection model - the idea we're shooting for
is that a sober driver transports a car full of drunk people, right?

Nissan is experimenting with cameras that will detect "drunken faces." :O

So, as paulie asked, where does the camera footage go?




... How do you tell when you're out of invisible ink?
--- MultiMail/DOS
* Origin: possumso.fsxnet.nz * SSH:2122/telnet:24/ftelnet:80 (21:4/134)

fusion wrote to paulie420 <=-

On 03 Jun 2023, paulie420 said the following...

Possibly... what if yer on your property of 100 acres, been drinking heavily and your wife has a heart attack - you have to get them to the edge of your gated property to meet the ambulance. Or, a myriad of other scenarios. This, also, doesn't account for the data collection side of things and where that data is being collected and whom has access to it
- it all just stinks to hell.

indeed on private property you can drink and drive without a
license in an unregistered car if you want.

But that wasn't the point. He was saying that this new technology can
PREVENT you from using the vehicle if it detects that you've been
drinking. You can't get the car to start/move.



... A woman drove me to drink, and I never had the courtesy to thank her.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

Re: Re: 2026 Infrastructure Bill in US; self-driving+
By: Blue White to poindexter FORTRAN on Sat Jun 03 2023 09:30 am

Ford and Volvo are already implementing these 'features' in 2o24. Their steering wheels will automatically detect the BAC of drivers; ok, that

I'd be leery of the air detection model - the idea we're shooting for
is that a sober driver transports a car full of drunk people, right?

How do they plan to stop the stupid people from driving? Give them a math test?
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

That wouldn't bode well for taxi drivers in the business of
transporting drunks around.

Regardless of the controversy, some people are focused on the problem,some think about
solutions.

in this matter, adding just few more sensors close to driver's seat to blow into and have
precise air test or a needle slot in a steering wheel to test blood sample that can
unlock driving functions is just one big bucket of options to continue innovating
in this directions.

I can bet somebody is already thinking about bundling it with sugar tests and dna tests
as ultimate anti theft mechanism.

all of that is only technology, that makes it possible and we can't stop it. i'm more worried about hurried legislation that can help over use it against people.

-h1

... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

Arelor wrote to paulie420 <=-

On the other hand, you can argue that is what they want since they want you not to have a car anymore.

Yes, there is that, too.


... Computer Hacker wanted. Must have own axe.
--- MultiMail/DOS
* Origin: possumso.fsxnet.nz * SSH:2122/telnet:24/ftelnet:80 (21:4/134)

Possibly... what if yer on your property of 100 acres, been
drinking heavily and your wife has a heart attack - you have to get
them to the edge of your gated property to meet the ambulance. Or,
a myriad of other scenarios. This, also, doesn't account for the
data collection side of things and where that data is being
collected and whom has access to it - it all just stinks to hell.

Something I had forgotten (maybe because I was still pretty young and
we didn't have new cars) was that back in the 1970's/early '80's when
they were pushing seat belts, there were cars that had some automated
gizmos to quasi-force drivers to use their belts.

I do remember the ones that auto retracted when you opened and closed
the front doors. What I did not remember, or know, is that some of
the cars would not start if they sensed that the driver was in the
car but not belted in.

I remember how the retracting ones were a bother enough if you were
simply trying move the car in and out of a garage, but I can't
imagine what it would have been like to have one tied to the ignition
just so you could start it while, say working on it.

While looking up articles about the alcohol detection, I read a
couple of articles that mentioned that these seat belt detector
schemes were failure-prone and lead to a lot of stranded drivers.
Car companies supposedly want to avoid a repeat of the seat belt
detector fiasco.


--- MagickaBBS v0.15alpha (Linux/armv7l)
* Origin: possumso.fsxnet.nz * SSH:2122/telnet:24/ftelnet:80 (21:4/134)

Re: Re: 2026 Infrastructure Bill in US; self-driving+
By: fusion to paulie420 on Sat Jun 03 2023 11:41 am

indeed on private property you can drink and drive without a license in an u

though i think at that point, given it'd likely be pretty rural and you'd wa

Some conversation I was having with a villager here:

"I have been thinking of getting a bike or an old car for moving around, but I have been thinking... do you know anybody who has a horse for sale?"

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

Re: RE: 2026 Infrastructure Bill in US; self-driving+
By: Blue White to paulie420 on Sun Jun 04 2023 07:46 am

Something I had forgotten (maybe because I was still pretty young and
we didn't have new cars) was that back in the 1970's/early '80's when they were pushing seat belts, there were cars that had some automated gizmos to quasi-force drivers to use their belts.

I do remember the ones that auto retracted when you opened and closed
the front doors. What I did not remember, or know, is that some of

Some cars did that even into the early 90s. I briefly had a 1993 Volkswagen Corrado that had those motorized seatbelts in the front when you opened & closed the doors (but you'd still have to clip in the bottom part).

Nightfox

indeed on private property you can drink and drive without a license in
an unregistered car if you want.

though i think at that point, given it'd likely be pretty rural and
you'd want to go for the country boy theme, you might not buy a modern
car for blasting around corners flinging mud ;)

For me, its more about the point. We never need m0re government snooping than we already have. This infrastructure bill was COMPLETELY ruined for me w/ these auto requirements... I hope the entire thing gets squashed - which is sad b/c what will this [Ben] administration end up having DONE? LOL...



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

While looking up articles about the alcohol detection, I read a
couple of articles that mentioned that these seat belt detector
schemes were failure-prone and lead to a lot of stranded drivers.
Car companies supposedly want to avoid a repeat of the seat belt
detector fiasco.

Exactamundo... I'm worried that the automakers, aside from the infrastructure bill BAC requirements, are making cars that are less YOURS and more theirs so long as you pay... these, and other pay-for-hardware thru software, car issues have me overlooking these highly modernized cars.



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

Blue White wrote to paulie420 <=-

Something I had forgotten (maybe because I was still pretty young and
we didn't have new cars) was that back in the 1970's/early '80's when
they were pushing seat belts, there were cars that had some automated gizmos to quasi-force drivers to use their belts.

I do remember the ones that auto retracted when you opened and closed
the front doors. What I did not remember, or know, is that some of
the cars would not start if they sensed that the driver was in the
car but not belted in.

I had a '77 Rabbit and later a 1992 Nissan Sentra with those. I liked
them as people at that point weren't putting on seatbelts by default. I remember a few people who wouldn't wear seatbelts unless prompted.

I remember how the retracting ones were a bother enough if you were
simply trying move the car in and out of a garage, but I can't
imagine what it would have been like to have one tied to the ignition
just so you could start it while, say working on it.

I hadn't heard of that, but they did have an annoying BONG to remind
you of a detached seatbelt, just like any other car of the time.



... ZIMA TASTES BETTER WHEN IT'S ILLEGAL
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

Arelor wrote to fusion <=-

Re: Re: 2026 Infrastructure Bill in US; self-driving+
By: fusion to paulie420 on Sat Jun 03 2023 11:41 am

"I have been thinking of getting a bike or an old car for moving
around, but I have been thinking... do you know anybody who has a horse for sale?"

You can "drive" a horse drunk...

Someone mentioned a thing in the south - seeing a dive bar with mopeds
parked around the back. Apparently, good ol' boys who've had one too
many DUI convictions and get their license taken away sometimes resort
to mopeds, since they don't require a license to operate - so you'd see
mopeds lined up outside the bar they got their DUIs at earlier.



... ZIMA TASTES BETTER WHEN IT'S ILLEGAL
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

Re: RE: 2026 Infrastructure Bill in US; self-driving+
By: Nightfox to Blue White on Sun Jun 04 2023 06:11 pm

Some cars did that even into the early 90s. I briefly had a 1993 Volkswagen Corrado that had those motorized seatbelts in the front when you opened & closed
the doors (but you'd still have to clip in the bottom part).

I knew so many guys that cut off those seatbelts, including me. My thinking was.. I did not want to be trapped in a burning car.
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

I hadn't heard of that, but they did have an annoying BONG to remind
you of a detached seatbelt, just like any other car of the time.

I think my dad would figure out wherever the beep was coming from, and disconnect a wire or something.

Hard to think of things that are much more annoying than that sound. And I say this as someone who would've been wearing the seatbelt regardless.

But, personally, I'd kinda like a four-point seatbelt, and maybe even a helmet and head restraint stuff. I like whatever safety features I can get.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

Re: Re: 2026 Infrastructure Bill in US; self-driving+
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Arelor on Mon Jun 05 2023 07:30 am

You can "drive" a horse drunk...

Someone mentioned a thing in the south - seeing a dive bar with mopeds parked around the back. Apparently, good ol' boys who've had one too
many DUI convictions and get their license taken away sometimes resort
to mopeds, since they don't require a license to operate - so you'd see mopeds lined up outside the bar they got their DUIs at earlier.

I have heard somebody evaded a DUI sentence because he could demonstrate the horse was "driving" himself and knew the way back home.

A small brewery uses Shire draft horses for distributing beer still. The horses know the route and know to stop at red lights.

We have had self-driving vehicles for so long yet nobody was losing his mind about them until the microchip variant arrived.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

Re: RE: 2026 Infrastructure Bill in US; self-driving+
By: Hustler to Nightfox on Mon Jun 05 2023 09:45 am

Re: RE: 2026 Infrastructure Bill in US; self-driving+
By: Nightfox to Blue White on Sun Jun 04 2023 06:11 pm

Some cars did that even into the early 90s. I briefly had a 1993 Volkswag Corrado that had those motorized seatbelts in the front when you opened & closed
the doors (but you'd still have to clip in the bottom part).

I knew so many guys that cut off those seatbelts, including me. My thinking --- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

I just carry a knife with me at all times.

Experts worldwide agree that everybody must carry a knife at all times.

Cpt. Fairbairn argued often for it. Dave Jones argued in Practical Western training that a knife is a must have, because you never know when one of your horses is gonna become entangled with your ropes.

A good blade with a glass breaker and belt cutter is the joker card you need.

(And BTW Dave Jones was so fucking right)

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

Hustler wrote to Nightfox <=-

I knew so many guys that cut off those seatbelts, including me. My thinking was.. I did not want to be trapped in a burning car.

All the auto-deploying seatbelts I saw had a seatbelt release at the
base of the seat, just like every other seatbelt made since 1965.




... The obstinate toy soldier becomes pliant.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

paulie420 wrote to Blue White <=-

Exactamundo... I'm worried that the automakers, aside from the infrastructure bill BAC requirements, are making cars that are less
YOURS and more theirs so long as you pay...

Elon Musk said the quiet part out loud. People will lease cars in the
future, upgrades will be tied to lease costs, and it'll be easier to
exact controls since they own the cars.



... The obstinate toy soldier becomes pliant.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

Re: Re: 2026 Infrastructure Bill in US; self-driving+
By: poindexter FORTRAN to paulie420 on Tue Jun 06 2023 07:44 am

Elon Musk said the quiet part out loud. People will lease cars in the future, upgrades will be tied to lease costs, and it'll be easier to
exact controls since they own the cars.

I've never really wanted to lease a car, as it seems like a waste to continually pay for something.. As expensive as a car could be, I'd rather buy it and own it and not have a car payment (at least when I finish paying the loan, if I get a loan). I think the fewer bills you owe, the better off your are financially.

Nightfox

The idea of companies using leases and subscription models to suck more and more money and control out of the end user always scared me. I'm committed to buying older used cars to avoid it.

The cave full of meat.

... We need to completely replace all his blood. Kes

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

We have had self-driving vehicles for so long yet nobody was losing his mind about them until the microchip variant arrived.

I imagine that's as self-driving as getting a taxi, but with possibly worse communication and better company.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

I've never really wanted to lease a car, as it seems like a waste to continually pay for something.. As expensive as a car could be, I'd rather buy it and own it and not have a car payment (at least when I finish paying the loan, if I get a loan). I think the fewer bills you owe, the better off your are financially.

Agreed, wholeheartedly, and yet the amount of subscriptions I have to things is much higher than it was not terribly long ago.

Though I guess there's a difference between paying for servers, magazines, supporting creators, streaming services, etc. than half-buying a car.

Though with most of that, I think the main thing I want is to be able to turn off auto-renewal easily.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

Re: Re: 2026 Infrastructure Bill in US; self-driving+
By: Adept to Nightfox on Wed Jun 07 2023 08:31 am

I've never really wanted to lease a car, as it seems like a waste to
continually pay for something.. As expensive as a car could be, I'd

Agreed, wholeheartedly, and yet the amount of subscriptions I have to things is much higher than it was not terribly long ago.

I don't subscribe to many things (same as always).. I guess old habits die hard. :)

Though I guess there's a difference between paying for servers, magazines, supporting creators, streaming services, etc. than half-buying a car.

Yeah, I think subscribing makes more sense in some cases, but personally I'd rather buy my car rather than to keep paying to borrow a car.

Nightfox

Re: Re: 2026 Infrastructure Bill in US; self-driving+
By: Arelor to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue Jun 06 2023 08:26 am

We have had self-driving vehicles for so long yet nobody was losing his mind about them until the microchip variant arrived.

How do you define 'so long'? I only first started hearing about self-driving cars within the last 8-10 years or so, and I thought it was still a developing technology. I'd heard about Tesla doing tests with theirs, and there still being issues with self-driving cars sometimes crashing due to errors & things. And I personally don't know anyone with a fully self-driving car..

Nightfox

Though I guess there's a difference between paying for servers, magaz supporting creators, streaming services, etc. than half-buying a car.

Yeah, I think subscribing makes more sense in some cases, but personally I'd rather buy my car rather than to keep paying to borrow a car.

These days, while I don't think I can legally drive here in Germany (valid US license, but I need to do things here), I've thought that it'd be fairly reasonable to get around with bikes, trains, scooters, etc., and then rent cars when wanting to go on longer trips.

But, in that case, I'm more paying to not have to take care of parking the car or do maintenance on it.

But, realistically, most people here likely live in a situation where getting by without a personal vehicle would be somewhere between "extremely hard" and "better have people who can drive you everywhere".

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

Re: Re: 2026 Infrastructure Bill in US; self-driving+
By: Nightfox to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue Jun 06 2023 10:49 am

I've never really wanted to lease a car, as it seems like a waste to continu nk the fewer bills you owe, the better off your are financially.

I don't like the renting/leasing system, but given the uncertainity involving vehicles in Spain, many people is opting to rent instead of purchase.

If the government suddenly decides to make your vehicle fleet illegal for the tasks you bought them for, you are screwed. If the vehicle fleet belongs to a renting company, you can just write the contract off paying a small penalty and go your merry way.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

Re: Re: 2026 Infrastructure Bill in US; self-driving+
By: Nightfox to Arelor on Wed Jun 07 2023 09:10 am

We have had self-driving vehicles for so long yet nobody was losing his mind about them until the microchip variant arrived.

How do you define 'so long'? I only first started hearing about self-drivin -driving cars sometimes crashing due to errors & things. And I personally d

"So long" would be an estimate of 5500 years.

"Domestication of the horse most likely took place in central Asia prior to 3500 BC. [...] The most recent, but most irrefutable evidence of domestication comes from sites where horse remains were interred with chariots in graves of the Sintashta and Petrovka cultures c. 2100 BC.

"

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

Re: Re: 2026 Infrastructure Bill in US; self-driving+
By: Arelor to Nightfox on Wed Jun 07 2023 02:48 pm

I don't like the renting/leasing system, but given the uncertainity involving vehicles in Spain, many people is opting to rent instead of purchase.

If the government suddenly decides to make your vehicle fleet illegal for the tasks you bought them for, you are screwed. If the vehicle fleet

I'd think the only times you'd have to worry about a "fleet" of vehicles is if you own a business that uses a lot of vehicles (such as a car rental business etc).. Does this also affect people who just buy a car for themselves or their family in Spain?

Nightfox

Re: Re: 2026 Infrastructure Bill in US; self-driving+
By: Arelor to Nightfox on Wed Jun 07 2023 02:54 pm

We have had self-driving vehicles for so long yet nobody was
losing his mind about them until the microchip variant arrived.

How do you define 'so long'? I only first started hearing about
self-drivin -driving cars sometimes crashing due to errors & things.
And I personally d

"So long" would be an estimate of 5500 years.

"Domestication of the horse most likely took place in central Asia prior to 3500 BC. [...] The most recent, but most irrefutable evidence of domestication comes from sites where horse remains were interred with chariots in graves of the Sintashta and Petrovka cultures c. 2100 BC.

Self-driving cars haven't been around for 5500 years...? Cars as we know them today have only been around for about 140 years..

Nightfox

Hello Arelor!

..but given the uncertainity
involving vehicles in Spain, many people is opting to rent instead of purchase.

WHAT is the "the uncertainty" of vehicles in Spain all about?


--- OpenXP 5.0.57
* Origin: (} Pointy McPointFace (21:4/106.21)

Hello Adept!

I've never really wanted to lease a car, as it seems like a waste to
continually pay for something.. As expensive as a car could be, I'd
rather buy it and own it and not have a car payment (at least when I
finish paying the loan, if I get a loan). I think the fewer bills you
owe, the better off your are financially.

Agreed, wholeheartedly, and yet the amount of subscriptions I have to things is much higher than it was not terribly long ago.

Leasing could make better sense if you are contractor or
operating a business. The monthly cost is a deductable expense
(meaning, less taxable income) and the taxes paid on that
qualify as a credit/rebate. With a lesser taxable income, you
are reducing the taxes owing to the gov't. So, with a lease,
you are basically paying yourself for the luxury of driving a
new car for a few years.

If you work for a company, and can arrange to be a contractor
instead of an employee, the above advantages could apply.

--- OpenXP 5.0.57
* Origin: (} Pointy McPointFace (21:4/106.21)

Hello Nightfox!

I've never really wanted to lease a car, as it seems like a waste to continually pay for something.. As expensive as a car could be, I'd
rather buy it and own it and not have a car payment (at least when I
finish paying the loan, if I get a loan). I think the fewer bills you
owe, the better off your are financially.

The problem with buying a new car up front are that the taxes
have to be paid all at once. With a lease, the taxes get
applied in monthly chunks for the duration of the lease. And,
if you buy a new car that devalues quickly, you can buy the car
at the end of lease (typically 4 yrs) for less than half its
value at the time.

And if you are contractor or self-emplyed, the lease is an
expense. If you are not, start a company that justifies
travel, and the lease can be your friend.





--- OpenXP 5.0.57
* Origin: (} Pointy McPointFace (21:4/106.21)

Re: Re: 2026 Infrastructure Bill in US; self-driving+
By: Nightfox to Arelor on Wed Jun 07 2023 02:11 pm

Re: Re: 2026 Infrastructure Bill in US; self-driving+
By: Arelor to Nightfox on Wed Jun 07 2023 02:48 pm

I don't like the renting/leasing system, but given the uncertainity involving vehicles in Spain, many people is opting to rent instead of purchase.

If the government suddenly decides to make your vehicle fleet illegal f the tasks you bought them for, you are screwed. If the vehicle fleet

I'd think the only times you'd have to worry about a "fleet" of vehicles is

Nightfox
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)

It pretty much does affect families too, but as far as I have seen families
are just not buying new cars. Last time I walked into a car dealership this year all the salesmen were sitting alone playing with their thumbs.

Adquisitive power has gone down the drain. Businesses, including family ones, can get into renting and leasing deals because they get tax advantages from them - fuel used for renting vehicles is tax deductible, but fuel used for company owned vehicles seems not to be in practice. A family is not so lucky.

I think the strategy for the small guy these days is to just buy a cheap used car, or at least that is what I am hearing. If they make your car illegal is not as a bad loss as if they make your new Audi A8 illegal - not that people has the money to buy new middle or high-end cars so easily anyway.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

Re: Re: 2026 Infrastructure Bill in US; self-driving+
By: Nightfox to Arelor on Wed Jun 07 2023 02:13 pm

Self-driving cars haven't been around for 5500 years...? Cars as we know th

Oh, but I was talking about self driving *vehicles*, which is exactly what you get when you put a horse and a chart together and teach the horse to pull the chart :-)

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

Re: 2026 Infrastructure Bill in US; self-driving+
By: Ogg to Arelor on Wed Jun 07 2023 06:41 pm

WHAT is the "the uncertainty" of vehicles in Spain all about?

There is political preasure enough that people is worried tolls will make vehicles impractical. There are lots of talk about tolls for entering and going out of towns, tolls in public roads and highways, that sort of thing. Politicians talk about it so much that you can be certain they will end up placing a toll for visiting the toilet. The question is *when*. Past that point I doubt you will want to get caught with a car.

There is also a lot of talk about creating restricted traffic zones in which only new cars are allowed. The issue is if you buy a car today they may modify the restrictions in the near future so you won't be able to drive it to the places you want to drive through. Practical example: if your job is in a different town than your home and there is no public transport connecting them both, and your workplace is in a planned restricted zone, a car you buy today might not be allowed near your workplace in a matter of a few years. There are some scheduled roadmaps put by politicians, but trust on politician's promises is running very low.

Nobody can afford vehicles that are future-proof beyond a select wealthy few. The end goal for politicians is to have all the light vehicles be electric, but right now virtually nobody can afford those. Heck, a number of people is having trouble getting food and diapers for their family already. The will for taking risks buying something expensive they may ban is at an historical minimum.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

Leasing could make better sense if you are contractor or
operating a business. The monthly cost is a deductable expense
(meaning, less taxable income) and the taxes paid on that
qualify as a credit/rebate. With a lesser taxable income, you
are reducing the taxes owing to the gov't. So, with a lease,
you are basically paying yourself for the luxury of driving a
new car for a few years.

My wife and I lease our main car. The reason is because we enjoy getting a new car every three years with zero hassle, and we don't have to pay for any maintenance.

Yes, it's a money pit, but it's not much different from the total cost of ownership over a period of time anyway, particularly with how expensive maintenance can be.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (21:4/173)

poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Blue White <=-

I hadn't heard of that, but they did have an annoying BONG to remind
you of a detached seatbelt, just like any other car of the time.

My 2016 automobile still does that. :)


... So easy, a child could do it. Child sold separately.
--- MultiMail/DOS
* Origin: possumso.fsxnet.nz * SSH:2122/telnet:24/ftelnet:80 (21:4/134)

The idea of companies using leases and subscription models to suck more and more money and control out of the end user always scared me. I'm committed to buying older used cars to avoid it.

1oo%. While I do drive new[er] vehicles, these issues are really bothering me as of late - what sucks is that we're already here; these things are coming whether we like it or not. These BAC sensors are coming, and damn right some companies are probably going to overstep and install 'features' that contact police, use interior cameras and etc etc... I'm hoping for some companies to take a stand against that sort of thing, but in the US anyway - we gotta wake up and realize whats in Bidens infrastructure bill.

Hell, they might not even MEAN for these technologies to be so bad - everyone agrees that automatic-braking is a valuable and good feature; I *love* that the bill says that feature needs to protect 85% of all 64mph and lower accidents - but lots of the things they are asking for AREN'T these technologies that everyone agrees with...



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

Agreed, wholeheartedly, and yet the amount of subscriptions I have to things is much higher than it was not terribly long ago.

You know what I started doing? It's almost stupid and certainly isn't convenient - but I use prepaid VISA cards for my subscriptions - think Netflix, Apple whatever, etc etc... this way at least I see them month to month and have to physically fund the card for them to continue.

I feel like it helps me decide which ones are really needed and which ones are just fluff that I shouldn't be spending on. I use a GreenDot and like the feedback it gives me... even if I feel like a hillbilly having to reload it at times. :P

Though I guess there's a difference between paying for servers,
magazines, supporting creators, streaming services, etc. than
half-buying a car.

I dunno - with vehicle prices being what they are today, leases aren't *always* a bad thing... its all relative to the price of the vehicle [Which now can be closer to 100,000 than the other way around!] and the price of the lease vs. any end-of-lease fees [mileage overage costs, etc]...

I think leases might be a decent way to pay for a car, especially as we start switching over to electric vehicles since we don't -really- know how long batteries will last and other factors.

Main point - these vehicles cost too damn much!!



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

Re: Re: 2026 Infrastructure Bill in US; self-driving+
By: esc to Ogg on Wed Jun 07 2023 05:14 pm

My wife and I lease our main car. The reason is because we enjoy getting a n

I personally consider switching cars every three years a waste of natural resources. It is the dark side of consummism at its uglier.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

Re: Re: 2026 Infrastructure Bill in US; self-driving+
By: Arelor to esc on Thu Jun 08 2023 06:11 am

Re: Re: 2026 Infrastructure Bill in US; self-driving+
By: esc to Ogg on Wed Jun 07 2023 05:14 pm

My wife and I lease our main car. The reason is because we enjoy getting a n

I personally consider switching cars every three years a waste of natural resources. It is the dark side of consummism at its uglier.

Someone (like me) will happily buy that lease return for pennies on the dollar and drive it for a couple decades. The natural resources are conserved (or at least, effectively utilized) and the Earth keeps on spinning. :-)
--
digital man (rob)

Synchronet/BBS Terminology Definition #33:
FSP = FidoNet Standards Proposal
Norco, CA WX: 63.7°F, 77.0% humidity, 11 mph ESE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (21:1/183)

Re: Re: 2026 Infrastructure Bill in US; self-driving+
By: Digital Man to Arelor on Fri Jun 09 2023 07:17 pm

I personally consider switching cars every three years a waste of natural resources. It is the dark side of consummism at its uglier.

Someone (like me) will happily buy that lease return for pennies on the dollar and
--

Sure, but that does not erase the fact that somebody else is switching cars and wasting natural resources like crazy.

Fun part is then politicians blame you for using an old car and praise the guys using
new cars despite the fact they are the ones wasting natural resources.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

BY: Digital Man (21:1/183)

|11DM|09> |10Someone (like me) will happily buy that lease return for pennies on the|07
|11DM|09> |10dollar and drive it for a couple decades. The natural resources are|07
|11DM|09> |10conserved (or at least, effectively utilized) and the Earth keeps on|07
|11DM|09> |10spinning. :-)|07
I might get myself a recent car in 3-4 years, but paying off car loans are not fun. I usually aspire to drive a car up to like 150-160k miles and then decide what else to do with it.


--- WWIV 5.9.0.3695[Windows]
* Origin: inland utopia * california * iutopia.duckdns.org:2023 (21:4/108)

Hello esc!

** On Wednesday 07.06.23 - 17:14, esc wrote to Ogg:

...So, with a lease, you are basically paying yourself
for the luxury of driving a new car for a few years.

My wife and I lease our main car. The reason is because we
enjoy getting a new car every three years with zero hassle,
and we don't have to pay for any maintenance.

I've leased 3 terms in a row for a total of 12yrs. I bought the
last leased vehicle.

Yes, it's a money pit, but it's not much different from the
total cost of ownership over a period of time anyway,
particularly with how expensive maintenance can be.

I appreciated gaining the reliabilty of a new car. But I was
still on the hook for regular/scheduled maintenance.

Wrt money pit, it probably works out the same if one buys a new
car outright and maybe sells that to replace it with another
new a few years later. For some, making the arrangements for
the selling of old is a hassle. It would be for me.

But, for some, buying "good" used cars and maintaining them
costs far less over time compared to the above. I have a
friend who has purchased quite a few different used cars - but
he's a pretty good DIY-guy and does not mind doing basic
repairs on his own. I believe that he has spent less than a 1/
4 in buying the used cars over the years than I spent in
leasing 3 in 12 yrs.

--- OpenXP 5.0.57
* Origin: fsxnet/2 (21:3/110.10)

Hello Arelor!

** On Wednesday 07.06.23 - 18:39, Arelor wrote to Ogg:

WHAT is the "the uncertainty" of vehicles in Spain all about?

There is political preasure enough that people is worried
tolls will make vehicles impractical. There are lots of
talk about tolls for entering and going out of towns, tolls
in public roads and highways, that sort of thing. ...

[...]

There is also a lot of talk about creating restricted
traffic zones in which only new cars are allowed. The issue
is if you buy a car today they may modify the restrictions
in the near future so you won't be able to drive it to the
places you want to drive through.

There should be a public outcry WHILE such things are being
"talked about" by the gov't.

The very real-life examples you mention would be such a thing
to cite.

Nobody can afford vehicles that are future-proof beyond a
select wealthy few. The end goal for politicians is to have
all the light vehicles be electric, but right now virtually
nobody can afford those. Heck, a number of people is having
trouble getting food and diapers for their family already.
The will for taking risks buying something expensive they
may ban is at an historical minimum.

Again.. that very scenario ought to be the slap in the head to
those detached-from-reality politicians.


--- OpenXP 5.0.57
* Origin: fsxnet/2 (21:3/110.10)

I personally consider switching cars every three years a waste of natural resources. It is the dark side of consummism at its uglier.

Thanks for the feedback. Turns out the dealership has no problem selling a 3 year old car with low miles and completed maintenance. Lots of people are in the market for those. But I'm just some evil consumer, so fuck me right?

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (21:4/173)

Re: Re: 2026 Infrastructure Bill in US; self-driving+
By: esc to Arelor on Thu Jun 08 2023 09:40 pm

Thanks for the feedback. Turns out the dealership has no problem selling a 3

Well, not that the end user of an used car has a way of knowing but consider this:

If I sell my car because I don't need it anymore or because I need a different one (say, I need to move merchandise between warehouses and my car is a peanut), when somebody buys the used car we have managed to reduce the number of cars that needed to be manufactured by one.

If I sell my car because I am wealthy and posh and can't let my friends see me driving anything which is not the latest trend, then I get a new trendy car, then sell the old one, we have two active cars. So far so good. HOwever if I do that once every three years what I have is (for the sake of simplicity) two active cars at a given time for the ecological cost of a manufactured car every three years (when cars can be made to last 10 years without too much work).

The fact I can be wasteful myself arguing that somebody can take advantage of my crumbs is not comforting and does not really solve the problem.

I see this often with used electronics and get the argument that it is ok to replace functioning electronics with newer models because you can sell the old devices and thus you are not increasing the number of devices that need manufacturing. What happens instead is some of the used electronics hits the second hand market and are bought but a significant part is wasted partially or totally.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

new a few years later. For some, making the arrangements for
the selling of old is a hassle. It would be for me.

My brother once rented a couch, as he and his wife worked through what furniture to actually get for the place (it was... a challenge).

And I think he phrased it along the lines of, he wasn't paying for having a couch for a short period of time, he was paying for a couch and to be able to have it disappear when no longer needed.

With cars... I've only _really_ dealt with selling one, and that was before moving to Germany, where I posted my car on Facebook, at a price below value, with the intent that someone would take it off my hands at that price.

It worked quite well, though with some stupidity in tow. E.g., first response was, "I'll buy it right now if you sell it for $x less", and my response, either actual or in my head was, "I've had this up for two hours and have 30 seemingly-serious offers. Your offer is laughable."

And then, for the guy who I ended up selling it to, he did his due diligence, then attempted to haggle, at which point I said that I had several fallback offers available while knowing it was worth more than what I was selling it for, and if he didn't want it at that price, thanks for wasting my time but I'll sell it to someone else.

Probably not the best way to sell cars, but when trying to have a car up until 2 or 3 days before leaving the country, it worked pretty well.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

Hello Arelor!

** On Saturday 10.06.23 - 04:15, Arelor wrote to Digital Man:

Someone (like me) will happily buy that lease return for
pennies on the dollar and --

Sure, but that does not erase the fact that somebody else
is switching cars and wasting natural resources like crazy.

But cars in general corrode and "return to the earth", no? :D

Fun part is then politicians blame you for using an old car
and praise the guys using new cars despite the fact they
are the ones wasting natural resources.

Not long ago, Ontario had an "Emissions Test" that every
vehicle had to pass every 2 yrs. I think it was in force for
about 8 yrs, and then it was scrapped. The system penalized old
cars (for getting old), and penalized new cars (for passing a
needless test plus a fee for the test!)


--- OpenXP 5.0.57
* Origin: fsxnet/2 (21:3/110.10)

Ogg wrote to Arelor <=-

Not long ago, Ontario had an "Emissions Test" that every
vehicle had to pass every 2 yrs. I think it was in force for
about 8 yrs, and then it was scrapped. The system penalized old
cars (for getting old), and penalized new cars (for passing a
needless test plus a fee for the test!)

Louisville, KY, had a money-making scheme like that several years back that lasted for a few years. It lost favor, and was eventually replaced with "reformulated gas" when a local news station exposed that, despite it being touted as not a money making scheme, people were getting rich off of it.



... How do you tell when you're out of invisible ink?
--- MultiMail/DOS
* Origin: possumso.fsxnet.nz * SSH:2122/telnet:24/ftelnet:80 (21:4/134)