I'm curious as to what the difference between the various software packages are? Mystic seems to be on the easy end to set up compared to Synchronet which looks pretty complicated to set up - so many options!

... User Error: Replace user and hit any key to continue...

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: toofargone to All on Mon Apr 03 2023 09:31 pm

I'm curious as to what the difference between the various software packages are? Mystic seems to be on the easy end to set up compared to Synchronet which looks pretty complicated to set up - so many options!

So Synchronet does have a bigger learning curve, but IMHO, it is a more feature rich BBS.

It supports many protocols web, mail, news, ftp, irc, and many others - which if you want to use them its great. You can also use it as a base (like a game server), if you want to play with other BBS packages and have them to connect to it to collect mail or play games.

The developer is very active and there are many others around who use it who can help too.

I've used both, and I do prefer Synchronet - but it took more effort to figure some things out.


...δεσ∩
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: I'm playing with ANSI+videotex - wanna play too? (21:2/116)

On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 21:26:25 +1000
"deon" <deon@21:2/116> wrote:

Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: toofargone to All on Mon Apr 03 2023 09:31 pm

I'm curious as to what the difference between the various software packages are? Mystic seems to be on the easy end to set up
compared to Synchronet which looks pretty complicated to set up -
so many options!

So Synchronet does have a bigger learning curve, but IMHO, it is a
more feature rich BBS.

It supports many protocols web, mail, news, ftp, irc, and many others
- which if you want to use them its great. You can also use it as a
base (like a game server), if you want to play with other BBS
packages and have them to connect to it to collect mail or play games.

The developer is very active and there are many others around who use
it who can help too.

I've used both, and I do prefer Synchronet - but it took more effort
to figure some things out.

Also the fact that Synchronet is in continual development and open
source, so you don't have to wait for someone to fix something and send
out a release when they're ready, you just pick up the latest commits.

While Synchronet is complicated, it's also very well documented so
whether you want to run on Windows or Linux, you'll find everything you
need to get going. I find the hardest part is redesigning the menus
since you are going to have to dip into the code a little. Again, lot's
of people who can help since it's open source. There's likely nothing
you're going to want to do that hasn't been done before.
--
End Of The Line BBS - Plano, TX
telnet endofthelinebbs.com 23
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com (21:2/101)

I'm curious as to what the difference between the various software packages are? Mystic seems to be on the easy end to set up compared to Synchronet which looks pretty complicated to set up - so many options!

Mystic feels more akin to the traditional DOS BBS softwares that were popular in the modding scene back in the day - think Renegade, Iniquity, etc.

Synchronet feels more like a professionalized software that you'd expect to be popular for more business focused applications back then - think PCBoard.

Either are great and will get the job done, it's more about what you're after. I don't think either one have any major gaps compared to the other.

Synchronet has built in javascript support for making mods and things. Mystic has its own Pascal-like scripting language and also some rudimentary Python support.

Both Synchronet and Mystic suffer from people hosting fairly generic BBSes without making any effort to individualize them. That's just my hot take ;)

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (21:4/173)

On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 11:12:28 -0700
"esc" (21:4/173) <esc@f173.n4.z21.fidonet> wrote:

Both Synchronet and Mystic suffer from people hosting fairly generic
BBSes without making any effort to individualize them. That's just my
hot take ;)

When I once said that every BBS is different and someone replied
"unless it's a Synchronet BBS" ... that's what got me to finally
customize my system. As I say, it's a bit more work due to having to
code backend menus.
--
End Of The Line BBS - Plano, TX
telnet endofthelinebbs.com 23
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com (21:2/101)

So Synchronet does have a bigger learning curve, but IMHO, it is a more feature rich BBS.

It does seem to have a lot of features that mystic doesn't, I'm not sure I would use them but as you go on you might enable them.

I do like software that's updated regularly though so that's probably a plus for me.

... My reality check just bounced

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: third rock bbs: bbs.thirdrockbbs.au (21:3/179)

While Synchronet is complicated, it's also very well documented so
whether you want to run on Windows or Linux, you'll find everything you

That bugs me with Mystic, the documentation is a bit sparse. If it wasn't for Avon and his youtube videos I'd be completely lost.

... A black cat crossing your path signifies that the animal is going somewhere

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: third rock bbs: bbs.thirdrockbbs.au (21:3/179)

customize my system. As I say, it's a bit more work due to having to
code backend menus.

This sends me back to my bbs in the 80s/90s... I had a look at the defaults and they were usable for a start.

... Everyone is entitled to my opinion!

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: third rock bbs: bbs.thirdrockbbs.au (21:3/179)

esc wrote to toofargone <=-

I'm curious as to what the difference between the various software packages are? Mystic seems to be on the easy end to set up compared to Synchronet which looks pretty complicated to set up - so many options!

Mystic feels more akin to the traditional DOS BBS softwares that
were popular in the modding scene back in the day - think
Renegade, Iniquity, etc.

Synchronet feels more like a professionalized software that you'd
expect to be popular for more business focused applications back
then - think PCBoard.

Either are great and will get the job done, it's more about what
you're after. I don't think either one have any major gaps
compared to the other.

Synchronet has built in javascript support for making mods and
things. Mystic has its own Pascal-like scripting language and
also some rudimentary Python support.

Both Synchronet and Mystic suffer from people hosting fairly
generic BBSes without making any effort to individualize them.
That's just my hot take ;)

Really an excellent summary and well-written. I couldn't agree more.



... What hair color do they put on the driver's licenses of bald men?
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

Michael Borthwick wrote to deon <=-

So Synchronet does have a bigger learning curve, but IMHO, it is a more feature rich BBS.

It does seem to have a lot of features that mystic doesn't, I'm
not sure I would use them but as you go on you might enable them.

Yes, the features can be selectively enabled/disabled.

I do like software that's updated regularly though so that's
probably a plus for me.

Synchronet is updated pretty much every single day. The author is very accessible in the system IRC channel, and often corrects bugs and/or
adds features the same day they are noted. The documentation is
un-matched. Also, as has been previously noted, it's all open-source so
if you have the desire/ability, you can customize it on your own.


... Why are there interstate highways in Hawaii?
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

I'm curious as to what the difference between the various software packages are? Mystic seems to be on the easy end to set up compared to Synchronet which looks pretty complicated to set up - so many options!

You've gotten many responses, but I'll take a stab at this too. IMO, its much like it was back in the day. (With many less commercial/active BBS softwares available)

Mystic - The RENEGADE BBS of the 2000s. Free, closed-source and mostly-active with slow points when the dev is busy. Very easily modifiable - at least on the top levels. What the cool kids run. Quick, easy and still powerful if you need it. (MPL (PASCAL-like)/Python code for modding a BBS.)

Synchronet - The professional software. (I *don't* think it should be free even!) Actively developed every single year and very powerful. That being said, like other 'professional' BBS softwares - its the most ugly and basic without modification. It uses Java for customization/modding; very powerful, IF a sysop knows how to use Java - you can customize *EVERYTHING*, but most people do very little.)

Enigma.5 - A node.js/JSON project that was very active for a while, then slowed down - with new development recently. It's the 'new kid on the block' that came out hard and is really cool - but a LITTLE light on options/features... however, as stated its been getting some love lately. Powerful if you know node.js or even JSON syntax... can be moderately to heavily modified - but you might have to code some THING that you want to add.

Talisman - A hobbyists project. APAM has given SO MUCH to the BBS community; even another BBS software, Magicka BBS... but its really light on features. Doesn't mean it isn't cool as heck - it uses LUA for modification/customization... this one is neat cause you can talk to APAM right on fsxNet and, so long as life doesn't have him tied up, he'll add good ideas... has gotten a LITTLE modding love in the recent month w/ releases from Talisman sysops. A fun one for the right sysop.

RENEGADE - "Screw you and yer Linux/Windows/MacOS - BBSes belong on DOS, you dummy!" This is the O.G. Mystic (Shutup, you Telegard die-hard!) software... runs just like it did in 1993, with the same issues and errors. Some development in the past several years, but fragmented - theres two RENEGADE websites and two developers? (Scratch that, make it 3.) If you wanna run RENEGADE, you already know it.

Virtual/VBBS - Kinda like the RENEGADE thing, these are retro systems that are unique and cool... but most sysops running them are doing so because thats the only BBS software they'd ever run - heck, maybe from an old backup of their original BBS.

I'm missing several - Wildcat!, Major BBS, Image, cNet, etc etc etc.

For me, its; do you wanna run RETRO or CURRENT?

RETRO; Renegade, Telegade, Virtual, VBBS, etc.

CURRENT; Mystic, Synchronet, Enigma.5, Talisman - pick yer poison.

SPECIALTY: Image=C=Commodore, cNet=Amiga...

Thats all I got.



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

When I once said that every BBS is different and someone replied
"unless it's a Synchronet BBS" ... that's what got me to finally
customize my system. As I say, it's a bit more work due to having to
code backend menus.

While I do think theres way too many stock or close to it Sync bbSes, the ones that rock it - rock it HARD.

In fact, even tho I run Mystic, I think Sync is the most powerful BBS software and CAN be modified more than any other:

Electronic Chicken @ bbs.electronicchicken.com:23
Archaic Binary @ bbs.archaicbinary.net:23
Capitol Shrill @ capitolshrill.com:23
Basement Theory @ basement.synchro.net:23
Broken Bubble MCMLXXIX @ bbs.thebrokenbubble.com:23
Convolution @ convolution.us:23
Dark Sanctuary @ [is it gone?!!]
Guardian @ guardian.synchro.net:23
Pharcyde @ bbs.pharcyde.org:23
Hax0r's Palace @ unknownrealm.org:23
Reality Check @ realitycheckbbs.org:23
Synchronix @ nix.synchro.net:23

Like anything else, you gotta hunt for the goodies - but w/ Synchronet, they're out there! I'm sure I missed a ton... but its powerful software to create on.



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

On 03 Apr 2023, Nigel Reed said the following...

When I once said that every BBS is different and someone replied
"unless it's a Synchronet BBS" ... that's what got me to finally
customize my system. As I say, it's a bit more work due to having to
code backend menus.
--

I agree with Nigel here, when I got back into running a BBS, I booted up Synchronet, and like many have said it is so feature rich that it can be VERY intimidating! It was for me back in 2018 after not running a BBS since 1996
and for me coming from the Commodore/Amiga world it was even tougher! So I
went with Mystic, it was easier to set up, reminded me of like someone said
the old Dos boards of the 90's and did I say it was easy?!? Since then I did put my own fingerprint on my Mystic, I redid all the menus into cursor
driven, and have changed other things and am still making changes.. About a year ago, I said I wanted to give Synchro another shot, so I put it up on Windows, I modified the menus (yes they are not very easy to mod, but once
you figure it out it is pretty easy) then started working on the text.. I recently moved it to a Linux VM, and it is still pretty easy moving with it.. I run both now, Synchro is VERY feature rich, Mystic is very easily modifiable. I run a login server, a InterBBS file server, and use Mystic as a front end to link PC Doors and Door Servers to my C-Net Amiga BBS which does not support RLOGIN yet..I run a InterBBS door Server on Synchro.. All these BBS' are what you want to make of them. I've always said when you log in to my BBS you are loggging into my home, so why not make my BBS' like my home?!?!?

... There is an exception to every rule, except this one.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: The Wrong Number Family Of BBS' - Wrong Number ][ (21:4/131)

I've not looked sideways at Mystic. But I always recommend caution with Synchronet. This usually raises a storm, and I may be the only one thats had
a problem with it. If you try use it, try installing it somewhere safe
first.

Spec


*** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
--- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
* Origin: Good Luck and drive offensively! (21:3/101)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: Gamgee to Michael Borthwick on Mon Apr 03 2023 20:46:00

... Why are there interstate highways in Hawaii?

Why is I-45 an interstate highway when it only runs from Galveston,TX to Dallas,TX ?
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com (21:2/101)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: paulie420 to toofargone on Mon Apr 03 2023 18:25:40

Synchronet - The professional software. (I *don't* think it should be free even!) Actively developed every single year and very powerful. That being said, like other 'professional' BBS softwares - its the most ugly and basic without modification. It uses Java for customization/modding; very powerful, IF a sysop knows how to use Java - you can customize *EVERYTHING*, but most people do very little.)

Javascript is not Java.
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com (21:2/101)

Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: Spectre to toofargone on Tue Apr 04 2023 12:14:00

I've not looked sideways at Mystic. But I always recommend caution with Synchronet. This usually raises a storm, and I may be the only one thats had
a problem with it. If you try use it, try installing it somewhere safe first.

Sounds like a skill issue ;)
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com (21:2/101)

Really an excellent summary and well-written. I couldn't agree more.

Thank you sir!

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (21:4/173)

toofargone wrote to All <=-

I'm curious as to what the difference between the various software packages are? Mystic seems to be on the easy end to set up compared to Synchronet which looks pretty complicated to set up - so many options!

I can't speak for Mystic, I've just dabbled with it, whereas I've run Synchronet since 2004. Synchronet seems pretty simple to set up, there's
a New Sysop wizard that does most of the setup, and there's now a
utility that'll configure your BBS for Fidonet (and othernets, too) and
even send the application email for you.

If you're looking to mod your BBS, Synchronet uses mostly Javascript,
whereas Mystic mods appear to be Python-based or in MPL, which looks
like a scripting language for Mystic.

Mystic can use a third-party message base format, which opens the door
to third-party message base utilities. Synchronet uses SMB, its own
format.

Synchronet has a pretty functional web front-end, I'm not sure about
Mystic.

I like them both, I've thought about switching to Mystic at one point
or another.







--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

On 03 Apr 2023, esc said the following...

Both Synchronet and Mystic suffer from people hosting fairly generic
BBSes without making any effort to individualize them. That's just my
hot take ;)

Wouldn't the customizations come from the sysop? You get the basics of what you need to get an average BBS off the ground and then any customizations you add in.

Why no mention of enigma bbs?

|23|04Dr|16|12Claw
|16|14Sysop |12Noverdu |14BBS |20|15Radio|10@|14HTTP://Noverdu.com:88
|16|10 Standard ports for SSH/Telnet |04 WEB|14@|12HTTP://noverdu.com:808 |20|15Global Chat, Global Messaging and Games! |16|10Ditch the Unsocial Media

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Noverdu BBS (21:1/210)

Nigel Reed wrote to Gamgee <=-

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: Gamgee to Michael Borthwick on Mon Apr 03 2023 20:46:00

... Why are there interstate highways in Hawaii?

Why is I-45 an interstate highway when it only runs from
Galveston,TX to Dallas,TX ?

Haha, another good one! The answer, for those who maybe don't know, has
to do with how the "Interstate" highway system is funded (federally, but
with some kind of money-sharing between states).

Something else that I find funny is how "interstate" has become a noun
in the English language. For example, you might say on the phone: "Yep,
I just got on the Interstate and I'll be there in an hour". ;-)



... Then, suddenly and embarrassingly, my swash came unbuckled.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

Spectre wrote to toofargone <=-

I've not looked sideways at Mystic. But I always recommend
caution with Synchronet. This usually raises a storm, and I may
be the only one thats had a problem with it. If you try use it,
try installing it somewhere safe first.

Another recommendation would be to try reading the (extensive)
documentation, and follow the (very clear) instructions. Nothing
"dangerous" about it.



... Oxymoron: A contradiction in terms, e.g. rap music...
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

On 03 Apr 2023, paulie420 said the following...

Thats all I got.

pAULIE42o
.........

Thats well written! Good Resource. Wish I could pin that one :D

I used to run VBBS in the 90's and had it fairly customized. I know there were quite a few users on the system. Only ever had 1 line for it. I went to mystic for the new BBS because After reading all the differences between them, and that it uses python. Its tried, True and tested. Not to mention run by the majority of Sysop's out there. Plenty of support from the community.

I was actually blown away by how easy and the amount of customization there was. Spent a ton if time tweaking every little thing.

In fact I have replacement menu's I need to get worked in just need the time for it.

Love the write up!

|23|04Dr|16|12Claw
|16|14Sysop |12Noverdu |14BBS |20|15Radio|10@|14HTTP://Noverdu.com:88
|16|10 Standard ports for SSH/Telnet |04 WEB|14@|12HTTP://noverdu.com:808 |20|15Global Chat, Global Messaging and Games! |16|10Ditch the Unsocial Media

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Noverdu BBS (21:1/210)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: paulie420 to toofargone on Mon Apr 03 2023 06:25 pm

Synchronet - The professional software. (I *don't* think it should be free even!) Actively developed every single year and very powerful. That being said, like other 'professional' BBS softwares - its the most ugly and basic without modification. It uses Java for customization/modding; very powerful, IF a sysop knows how to use Java - you can customize

It uses JavaScript, not Java. I haven't seen Java at all anywhere in Synchronet.

Nightfox

Wouldn't the customizations come from the sysop? You get the basics of what you need to get an average BBS off the ground and then any customizations you add in.

Yes, but a lot of sysops just throw bone stock BBSes online and call it a day, which is what I was referring to.

Why no mention of enigma bbs?

I just took it as "Synchronet vs Mystic" since the "?" could mean dozens of things :)

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (21:4/173)

Another recommendation would be to try reading the (extensive) documentation, and follow the (very clear) instructions. Nothing "dangerous" about it.

Yes, I still don't think I agree with Spec saying anything about SBBS is dangerous. That's a mischaracterization. If SBBS is dangerous, so then is any piece of software that someone may install, and equally so.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (21:4/173)

esc wrote to Gamgee <=-

Another recommendation would be to try reading the (extensive) documentation, and follow the (very clear) instructions. Nothing "dangerous" about it.

Yes, I still don't think I agree with Spec saying anything about
SBBS is dangerous. That's a mischaracterization. If SBBS is
dangerous, so then is any piece of software that someone may
install, and equally so.

Yes, if I recall he said it wiped some files, or changed a bunch of permissions, or something similar, and basically trashed the system it
was put on. Of course, that has never happened to a single one of the
other 845,212 people who have installed Synchronet, but it must be
Synchronet's fault... :-)


... If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

On 04 Apr 2023, Nigel Reed said the following...

Synchronet. This usually raises a storm, and I may be the only one tha had
a problem with it. If you try use it, try installing it somewhere safe first.

Sounds like a skill issue ;)

It's not a 'skill' issue. He said what he meant. Some of the folks (except Rob of course) that 'help' with Synchronet, shouldn't.

... My software never has bugs. It just develops random features...

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Bad Poetry Blues - centralontarioremote.com:2300 (21:1/159)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: Mickey to Nigel Reed on Tue Apr 04 2023 20:29:32

Sounds like a skill issue ;)

It's not a 'skill' issue. He said what he meant. Some of the folks (except Rob of course) that 'help' with Synchronet, shouldn't.

Well, the installation of Synchronet is fully documented on the wiki. Numerous people have installed it with little or no issues at all and got it running.
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com (21:2/101)

Sounds like a skill issue ;)

Shrug, thats the usual consensus.. I don't concur, but I do have a rather
ratty server install that probably isn't helping.


*** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
--- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
* Origin: Good Luck and drive offensively! (21:3/101)

It uses JavaScript, not Java. I haven't seen Java at all anywhere in Synchronet.

Everyone has learned me on this distinction - I 'meant' the same, but ... understand. :P



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

It's not a 'skill' issue. He said what he meant. Some of the folks
(except Rob of course) that 'help' with Synchronet, shouldn't.

Maybe if that's the case we should stop using FTN to ask for help with Synchronet and put in the wiki that nobody else is qualified to help?

I reject this. We're a community, we help one another. There's some degree of due diligence someone should pay down when doing anything. *shrug*

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (21:4/173)

Everyone has learned me on this distinction - I 'meant' the same, but ... understand. :P

I better not catch you saying java ever again!

;) hehe

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (21:4/173)

Another recommendation would be to try reading the (extensive) documentation, and follow the (very clear) instructions. Nothing "dangerous" about it.

Perhaps you ought to think of this as more a "Tenth Man Rule" or Devil's Advocate train of thought. I did cover the instructions..

Spec


*** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
--- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
* Origin: Good Luck and drive offensively! (21:3/101)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: Nigel Reed to All on Mon Apr 03 2023 04:32 pm

When I once said that every BBS is different and someone replied
"unless it's a Synchronet BBS" ... that's what got me to finally
customize my system. As I say, it's a bit more work due to having to
code backend menus.

There's a JS script for Synchronet called menuedit.js in sbbs/exec that echicken wrote that (as far as my understanding) is meant to be a more traditional menu editor that you might see in other BBS software and works along with menushell.js so that you don't have to code everything for your menus. I haven't used it much, but I've been curious to try it more.

Nightfox

On Wed, 5 Apr 2023 16:25:00 -0700
"Nightfox" (21:1/137) <Nightfox@f137.n1.z21.fidonet> wrote:

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: Nigel Reed to All on Mon Apr 03 2023 04:32 pm

When I once said that every BBS is different and someone replied
"unless it's a Synchronet BBS" ... that's what got me to finally customize my system. As I say, it's a bit more work due to
having to code backend menus.

There's a JS script for Synchronet called menuedit.js in sbbs/exec
that echicken wrote that (as far as my understanding) is meant to be
a more traditional menu editor that you might see in other BBS
software and works along with menushell.js so that you don't have to
code everything for your menus. I haven't used it much, but I've
been curious to try it more.

I looked at it once but was put off by the lack of documentation, I'm
sure.
--
End Of The Line BBS - Plano, TX
telnet endofthelinebbs.com 23
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com (21:2/101)

On 04 Apr 2023 at 10:35a, Michael Borthwick pondered and said...

That bugs me with Mystic, the documentation is a bit sparse. If it
wasn't for Avon and his youtube videos I'd be completely lost.

Thanks for the kind feedback, the videos are very dated now and overdue for some attention. I agree documentation for Mystic is not as good as the efforts of Digital Man and the Synchronet community.

But I'd offer that the Mystic docs and Wiki have come along way over the years :) But I am a bit biased as I've been involved over the years at adding content to the Wiki along with James/g00r00.

As to which software, I'd suggest explore both and (indeed) some other great offerings out there too. It's good there's a few choices about these days - yay!

Kerr Avon [Blake's 7] 'I'm not expendable, I'm not stupid and I'm not going' avon[at]bbs.nz | bbs.nz | fsxnet.nz

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

On 03 Apr 2023 at 06:25p, paulie420 pondered and said...

Thats all I got.

Nice write up :)

Kerr Avon [Blake's 7] 'I'm not expendable, I'm not stupid and I'm not going' avon[at]bbs.nz | bbs.nz | fsxnet.nz

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

There's a JS script for Synchronet called menuedit.js in sbbs/exec that echicken wrote that (as far as my understanding) is meant to be a more traditional menu editor that you might see in other BBS software and
works along with menushell.js so that you don't have to code everything for your menus. I haven't used it much, but I've been curious to try it more.

Oh, nice. I had no idea this existed. I'm going to probably go mess around with this now.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (21:4/173)

On Wed, 5 Apr 2023 18:23:18 -0700
"esc" (21:4/173) <esc@f173.n4.z21.fidonet> wrote:

There's a JS script for Synchronet called menuedit.js in
sbbs/exec that echicken wrote that (as far as my understanding)
is meant to be a more traditional menu editor that you might see
in other BBS software and works along with menushell.js so that
you don't have to code everything for your menus. I haven't
used it much, but I've been curious to try it more.

Oh, nice. I had no idea this existed. I'm going to probably go mess
around with this now.

That's the point, no real documentation for it. It's buried away. By
the time you've found it, your board is probably already reconfigured.
--
End Of The Line BBS - Plano, TX
telnet endofthelinebbs.com 23
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com (21:2/101)

Everyone has learned me on this distinction - I 'meant' the same, but understand. :P

I better not catch you saying java ever again!
;) hehe

Yea, you and everyone else. :P I got corrected on DoveNet too... TBH, Javascript is what I meant - but thats my ignorance as I didn't even think of the difference between the two.

At any rate - Sync is super powerful... if you know Java. !!!! :P



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: paulie420 to esc on Wed Apr 05 2023 05:50 pm

At any rate - Sync is super powerful... if you know JavaScript

I actually didn't know much about JavaScript before I started running Synchronet.. Previously, I had just done a litle bit of JavaScript for some web pages, validating user input on some web forms & such. I really started to learn a lot about the JavaScript language once I started writing JS mods for Synchronet.

Nightfox

At any rate - Sync is super powerful... if you know Java. !!!! :P

I'm dying :P

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (21:4/173)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: Nightfox to paulie420 on Wed Apr 05 2023 09:46 pm

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: paulie420 to esc on Wed Apr 05 2023 05:50 pm

At any rate - Sync is super powerful... if you know JavaScript

I actually didn't know much about JavaScript before I started running Synchronet.. Previously, I had just done a litle bit of JavaScript for some web pages, validating user input on some web forms & such. I really started to learn a lot about the JavaScript language once I started writing JS mods for Synchronet.

And knowing JS might be good for your career! :-P
--
digital man (rob)

Breaking Bad quote #3:
Please tell me: how much is enough? How big does this pile have to be? - Skyler Norco, CA WX: 51.6°F, 57.0% humidity, 0 mph N wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (21:1/183)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Thu Apr 06 2023 12:09 am

I actually didn't know much about JavaScript before I started running
Synchronet.. Previously, I had just done a litle bit of JavaScript
for some web pages, validating user input on some web forms & such. I
really started to learn a lot about the JavaScript language once I
started writing JS mods for Synchronet.

And knowing JS might be good for your career! :-P

Yep, for sure. I've used JS occasionally for work since I've started using Synchronet, though only a couple times. Once was where I'd embedded a JS engine into a couple of test automation programs, and another for web development. Probably just by chance, I haven't had many software development projects for work that make use of JS.

Nightfox

At any rate - Sync is super powerful... if you know Java. !!!! :P

How well do you know your mug o' joe.

Spec

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

Gamgee wrote to Nigel Reed <=-

Something else that I find funny is how "interstate" has become a noun
in the English language. For example, you might say on the phone:
"Yep, I just got on the Interstate and I'll be there in an hour". ;-)

Vernacular tells us in California which part you're from. If you call a
freeway "The <number>", then you're from southern California. If you
refer to them by the number alone, northern California.

If you refer to the freeways by name, then you're unbelievably old.

In the San Francisco bay area, all of the freeways had names first. 13
was the Warren Freeway, 101 the Bayshore, 80 the Eastshore, 280 the
James Lick, 17/880 was the Nimitz, and so on...



... It's a bold strategy, Cotton, let's see if it plays out for 'em...
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

claw wrote to paulie420 <=-

Thats well written! Good Resource. Wish I could pin that one :D

Back in the day we didn't have no PINTEREST! We used to save TEXT FILES
to our HARD DRIVES using CAPTURE BUFFERS!


... "He who is without oil, shall cast the first rod."-Compressions 8.7:1.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

esc wrote to claw <=-

Yes, but a lot of sysops just throw bone stock BBSes online and call it
a day, which is what I was referring to.

We all started somewhere. I hear people talk about wanting to get their
BBS just right before opening it to the public - when I started out I
had a vanilla Telegard install but had all of my echoes working. I tuned
it and modded it as I went.

But it looked pretty bad at first. :)




... See you on the other side.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

esc wrote to Gamgee <=-

Another recommendation would be to try reading the (extensive) documentation, and follow the (very clear) instructions. Nothing "dangerous" about it.

Yes, I still don't think I agree with Spec saying anything about SBBS
is dangerous. That's a mischaracterization. If SBBS is dangerous, so
then is any piece of software that someone may install, and equally so.

Agreed, I've run Synchronet since 2004 and it went pretty easily. Now,
with built-in mailer, areafix, filefix and TIC support it's even easier.
A init .js file will automatically configure Fidonet and othernets, even applying for you - and DOVEnet works almost "out of the box".



... Look through the eye to know thyself.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

Nightfox wrote to paulie420 <=-

I actually didn't know much about JavaScript before I started running Synchronet.. Previously, I had just done a litle bit of JavaScript for some web pages, validating user input on some web forms & such. I
really started to learn a lot about the JavaScript language once I
started writing JS mods for Synchronet.

It's funny that the extensibility can be a good part of why we choose
BBSes. I've been a long time Synchronet sysop but keep getting drawn to
Mystic, because I want to play with Python.



... All of my certifications are self-signed.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Gamgee <=-

Gamgee wrote to Nigel Reed <=-

Something else that I find funny is how "interstate" has become a noun
in the English language. For example, you might say on the phone:
"Yep, I just got on the Interstate and I'll be there in an hour". ;-)

Vernacular tells us in California which part you're from. If you
call a freeway "The <number>", then you're from southern
California. If you refer to them by the number alone, northern
California.

Haha, yes, I agree and understand this perfectly! I lived in the Bay
Area from 90-92, in Alameda, and met/dated my wife in Daly City. So,
plenty of time on 280 and the Bay Bridge, and 880. I still own a home
out past Livermore, so familiar with the traffic issues on 580 too,
although I only visit once a year or so. I also have a buddy who lives
down in Orange County, who tells me horror stories about "The 405".

If you refer to the freeways by name, then you're unbelievably
old.

LOL, yes!

In the San Francisco bay area, all of the freeways had names
first. 13 was the Warren Freeway, 101 the Bayshore, 80 the
Eastshore, 280 the James Lick, 17/880 was the Nimitz, and so
on...

I'm no spring chicken, but with the exception maybe of Bayshor and
Nimitz, the rest of those don't ring a bell.

Also as a point of interest, I don't hear Interstate highways called
"freeway" anywhere else but California, usually.


... Then, suddenly and embarrassingly, my swash came unbuckled.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

On 08 Apr 23 08:00:00, poindexter FORTRAN wrote:

esc wrote to claw <=-

Yes but a lot of sysops just throw bone stock BBSes online and call it a day which is what I was referring to.

We all started somewhere. I hear people talk about wanting to get their PF>BBS just right before opening it to the public - when I started out I
had a vanilla Telegard install but had all of my echoes working. I tuned PF>it and modded it as I went.

But it looked pretty bad at first. :)

... See you on the other side.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

I have a stock CyberBBS online - but I guess thats the point! :)\

-Nugax (cbbs)


--- CyberBBS v1.0.11 2023/03/12 [Debian Linux/x64]
* Origin: CyberBBS WHQ BBS | http://www.cyberbbs.co (21:1/167)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Nightfox on Sat Apr 08 2023 08:19 am

It's funny that the extensibility can be a good part of why we choose BBSes. I've been a long time Synchronet sysop but keep getting drawn to Mystic, because I want to play with Python.

I've sometimes thought Python would be a good language for extensibility, but I'm fine with using JS for Synchronet. And outside of Synchronet, I've used Python more often than JS.

Nightfox

Re: Re: Life is a highway...
By: Gamgee to poindexter FORTRAN on Sat Apr 08 2023 04:27 pm

first. 13 was the Warren Freeway, 101 the Bayshore, 80 the
Eastshore, 280 the James Lick, 17/880 was the Nimitz, and so
on...

I'm no spring chicken, but with the exception maybe of Bayshor and Nimitz, the rest of those don't ring a bell.

I only remember them out of sheer repetition. My parents listened to KNBR in the mornings in the kitchen, and the traffic reporter always referred to the freeways by the name and number.

...TWENTY PERCENT OF DENTISTS RECOMMEND GUM
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

Talisman - A hobbyists project. APAM has given SO MUCH to the BBS
community; even another BBS software, Magicka BBS... but its really
light on features.

Just curious, but what features are you missing from talisman? Apart from
a GUI configuration editor, I thought I had most things covered?

Talisman has:

FTN Support with Tosser/Scanner & Tic Processor
BinkP client
WWIVnet Support
QWK network support (With headers.dat)
QWK / Bluewave offline mail
Built in full screen message editor / viewer
Theme / Menu support with wide screen / fonts & sixel
Gopher Server
File areas with Lightbar
Scripting support via LUA
Synchronet Avatars via a Lua mod I wrote
Runs on Linux / FreeBSD / NetBSD / Windows & last time I checked macOS.
Free and OpenSource.
Door Support
UTF-8 output as well as CP437 (and conversion for doors on Linux)

Talisman DOESN'T have:

Complete NNTP server (I started writing one and readonly is there, but I
don't like it so never finished it)
Gui Configuration editor
spell checker

I'm not offended or anything, I'm just wondering. "really light on
features" sounds like it's just scraping in with the bare minimum, and I thought it was pretty competitive with the features it supports.

Andrew


--- Talisman v0.47-dev (Windows/x64)
* Origin: Smuggler's Cove - Private BBS (21:1/182)

It's funny that the extensibility can be a good part of why we choose BBSes. I've been a long time Synchronet sysop but keep getting drawn to Mystic, because I want to play with Python.

Temper your python expectations a bit! Unless you want to play with 2.7, that is :)

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (21:4/173)

On Sat, 8 Apr 2023 08:00:00 -0700
"poindexter FORTRAN" (21:4/122)
<poindexter.FORTRAN@f122.n4.z21.fidonet> wrote:

esc wrote to claw <=-

Yes, but a lot of sysops just throw bone stock BBSes online and
call it a day, which is what I was referring to.

We all started somewhere. I hear people talk about wanting to get
their BBS just right before opening it to the public - when I started
out I had a vanilla Telegard install but had all of my echoes
working. I tuned it and modded it as I went.

My BBS would never have been online if I had customized it first. Took
me about 3 years to create my menus. I did add a new things like
Nightfox's message reader/area chooser stuff but that was it really.

One day, I just sat down, looked at my board and thought, "something
has to change". so I created a bunch of new menus on a loose theme. I
think it happened when I started playing with TheDraw and found some
fonts I liked that I could use in the menus.
--
End Of The Line BBS - Plano, TX
telnet endofthelinebbs.com 23
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com (21:2/101)

On Sat, 8 Apr 2023 17:56:20 -0700
"Nightfox" (21:1/137) <Nightfox@f137.n1.z21.fidonet> wrote:

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Nightfox on Sat Apr 08 2023 08:19 am

It's funny that the extensibility can be a good part of why we
choose BBSes. I've been a long time Synchronet sysop but keep
getting drawn to Mystic, because I want to play with Python.

I've sometimes thought Python would be a good language for
extensibility, but I'm fine with using JS for Synchronet. And
outside of Synchronet, I've used Python more often than JS.

I learned perl in 1996 when I got a contract job at HP and I was asked
to write some scripts in PERL and handed a Camel book. I enjoy how
flexible the language is.

It has its good points and bad points. Python is good that it's very structured, but it's also bad that it's very structured (for me
anyway), I don't see the sense in putting 4 spaces when one tab would
do the job. and loops really have no ending, other than a blank line.
yes, I've done a bit of python, but that was out of necessity and I
really don't intend learning it.

JS isn't too bad, once you get to know it especially with the SBBS
additions.
--
End Of The Line BBS - Plano, TX
telnet endofthelinebbs.com 23
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com (21:2/101)

On 09 Apr 2023, Nigel Reed said the following...

My BBS would never have been online if I had customized it first. Took
me about 3 years to create my menus. I did add a new things like Nightfox's message reader/area chooser stuff but that was it really.

Same here. The night I put my BBS online I posted an ad in a group on Facebook, now mind you, I already had fsxNet installed and was hooked up to DoorParty for doors. I was roasted by a member of the group saying typical Mystic fly by night wannabe sysOp. Plain out of the box BBS. Since that night, I have done my cursor menu's, installed my own door server, and modified it up the way I want it. All BBS' start somewhere...

Al

... Isn’t it a bit unnerving that doctors call what they do "practice"?

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: The Wrong Number Family Of BBS' - Wrong Number ][ (21:4/131)

Bucko wrote to All <=-

Same here. The night I put my BBS online I posted an ad in a group on Facebook, now mind you, I already had fsxNet installed and was hooked
up to DoorParty for doors. I was roasted by a member of the group
saying typical Mystic fly by night wannabe sysOp.

I'd be disappointed if the offending sysop wasn't roasted by the other
sysops. Well done - way to generate interest in the hobby!



... Don't bite the hand that feeds you WiFi.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

Hi apam,

Talisman has:

Runs on Linux / FreeBSD / NetBSD / Windows & last time I checked

I wanted to give it a go on NetBSD-M68K, but the first hill to get over
was the install of NetBSD... It's not liking something on my machine. #-(



\/orlon
aka
Stephen


--- Talisman v0.47-dev (Linux/m68k)
* Origin: Vorlon Empire: Amiga 3000 powered in Sector 550 (21:1/195.1)

On 09 Apr 2023, poindexter FORTRAN said the following...

I'd be disappointed if the offending sysop wasn't roasted by the other
sysops. Well done - way to generate interest in the hobby!

Actually, he wasn't.. I went into another group cause I got a private message from someone else in that group telling me the snobs aren't in this other group and I went there.. It was definitely a learning experience.. I am glad that happened because 3 months later, I went back in that group and posted an ad for not only my board, but my door server and my 3rd BBS.. LOL Their loss that I left that group.. :)

AL

... Radioactive cats have 18 half-lives

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: The Wrong Number Family Of BBS' - Wrong Number ][ (21:4/131)

On 08 Apr 2023, poindexter FORTRAN said the following...

Back in the day we didn't have no PINTEREST! We used to save TEXT FILES
to our HARD DRIVES using CAPTURE BUFFERS!

OMG yeah I still have a directory of crap I have saved from the years.

Should really go look through all that stuff and clean it up.

|23|04Dr|16|12Claw
|16|14Sysop |12Noverdu |14BBS |20|15Radio|10@|14HTTP://Noverdu.com:88
|16|10 Standard ports for SSH/Telnet |04 WEB|14@|12HTTP://noverdu.com:808 |20|15Global Chat, Global Messaging and Games! |16|10Ditch the Unsocial Media

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Noverdu BBS (21:1/210)

Same here. The night I put my BBS online I posted an ad in a group on

I put my BBS online, and immediately started getting callers from telnetbbsguide, because they had found my BBS and added an entry.

I _still_ haven't put an ad for it anywhere, because there's too much I'd like to change before finding it to be complete enough.

And, if I'm being honest, it's work to put an ad for it, and if I'm doing BBS work, I may as well make the BBS better.

But at this point, while it's nice to have callers, I enjoy chatting with the occasional user that stops by and sends a message, etc., the BBS is mostly just so I can keep up with FSXnet and occasionally have some fun with BBSing stuff, in ways that I can control and curate to my heart's content.

Maybe eventually I'll do more, but I'm okay with BBSing being a side hobby that I don't go _too_ deeply into. Lots of other hobbies to explore, too.

to DoorParty for doors. I was roasted by a member of the group saying typical Mystic fly by night wannabe sysOp. Plain out of the box BBS.

And here people could say, "Welcome to the scene! I look forward to hearing about the interesting things you do to your BBS as you make it look less stock."

But I suppose I understand how the roasting can creep in, when we're not at our nicest.

Since that night, I have done my cursor menu's, installed my own door server, and modified it up the way I want it. All BBS' start somewhere...

Nice! And, yeah, if you keep doing additional things, it winds up turning into something pretty interesting.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: Bucko to All on Sun Apr 09 2023 07:18 am

Same here. The night I put my BBS online I posted an ad in a group on Facebook, now mind you, I already had fsxNet installed and was hooked up to DoorParty for doors. I was roasted by a member of the group saying typical Mystic fly by night wannabe sysOp. Plain out of the box BBS. Since that night, I have done my cursor menu's, installed my own door server, and modified it up the way I want it. All BBS' start somewhere...

I always thought it made more sense to customize the appearance of a BBS before putting it online or advertising it, so that you don't get complaints that it's a stock BBS that looks like a lot of other BBSes..

Nightfox

On 10 Apr 2023, Adept said the following...

I put my BBS online, and immediately started getting callers from telnetbbsguide, because they had found my BBS and added an entry.

Yup all of my boards are on there.. Including some that have gone down. Need to update.. LOL

I _still_ haven't put an ad for it anywhere, because there's too much
I'd like to change before finding it to be complete enough.

I place ads on CommodoreNet and I believe here on fsx for my boards.. Nothing to crazy.. Eventually, I will get ads on all of the nets if anyone is interested..

But at this point, while it's nice to have callers, I enjoy chatting
with the occasional user that stops by and sends a message, etc., the
BBS is mostly just so I can keep up with FSXnet and occasionally have
some fun with BBSing stuff, in ways that I can control and curate to my heart's content.

It's funny that was exactly why I put my board back up, I enjoy seeing it going from stock to something different. Back in the day when I was running C-Net then Image, I always started out with a minor modded board, then went bat crazy on it changing things around.. My final Image BBS back in 93 was a front for an Adult board, and a regular board. I wrote a mod into it that allowed my Adult users to press a key and the board would be totally adult, files, message bases, the whole 9 yards. When they were done, by hitting O for logoff would put them back into the regular board and log them off.. If porn wasn't so readily available today, I would do the same thing again on my Commodore Image BBS.. LOL

Maybe eventually I'll do more, but I'm okay with BBSing being a side
hobby that I don't go _too_ deeply into. Lots of other hobbies to
explore, too.

I have gotten to deep again.. I spend most nights reading echo's or in the case of my Image BBS writing mods for it.

And here people could say, "Welcome to the scene! I look forward to hearing about the interesting things you do to your BBS as you make it look less stock."

But I suppose I understand how the roasting can creep in, when we're not at our nicest.

I have something I am about to start working on with my Mystic that although nothing crazy will cut logon times and logoff times and that is what I want to do make it fast to get in then get out..

Al

... Live every day as though it were your last. One day, you'll be right

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: The Wrong Number Family Of BBS' - Wrong Number ][ (21:4/131)

On 10 Apr 2023, Nightfox said the following...

I always thought it made more sense to customize the appearance of a BBS before putting it online or advertising it, so that you don't get complaints that it's a stock BBS that looks like a lot of other BBSes..

I completely respect that, but for me, putting up a totally stock board then modifying it as it goes along gives the user something new every time they log in. I used to do this back in the day with my Commodore BBS' both C-Net and Image. People would log on and say they liked or disliked new things. I was running a Muxed Lt Kernal so I was changing things while users were online! Best was got a frantic feedback from a user telling me the BBS was changing while he was online that something was wrong.. LOL I was sitting next to the BBS computer (C64) on my C128 replacing files which I was re-writing in real time. LOL He didn't know what was happening!! I still do it, with Mystic I change menus while the user is online changes graphics do what I am going to do to make it better.. Ah that is all just me.. LOL

AL

... Great minds think alike; small minds run together

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: The Wrong Number Family Of BBS' - Wrong Number ][ (21:4/131)

At any rate - Sync is super powerful... if you know JavaScript

I actually didn't know much about JavaScript before I started running Synchronet.. Previously, I had just done a litle bit of JavaScript for some web pages, validating user input on some web forms & such. I
really started to learn a lot about the JavaScript language once I
started writing JS mods for Synchronet.

I just gave 3.20 an install and w0w, lots has changed. The auto-import of eXternal stuff is pretty rad...

I was excited to see yer SIXEL Matrix Login mod, so you've learned at least a little bit... I'm gonna have to learn a TAD as I'm h0ping to use Synchro on a new retro-bbs idea; I didn't design 2oFB to be kind to retro hardware... thats one of the powerful things about Sync is that it helps a sysop create a board thats friendly to all different terminals, screen sizes and fonts/etc.

I'm hoping to 'heavily' modify Synchro into something that IS geared towards old hardware and their native terminals; C=, 40 column Amiga, topaz ASCII and 80 column IBM ANSI... I'm thinking that Synchro will allow me to provide a board that any old system can connect to and l00k correct.



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

I'm curious as to what the difference between the various software packages are? Mystic seems to be on the easy end to set up compared to Synchronet which looks pretty complicated to set up - so many options!

I tried to set both in local network and i succeeded in 30mins with Mystic and I was bamboozled by Synchronet and got bored, so you may be right.

But I'm all newbie. I'm learning now MPL and Python plugins and customizations and that's funny adventure and I see boards on Mystic that are super nicely customized in navigation flow and art, while supporting the same number of fundamental and critical features like Mystic.

Yet, I see such a number of boards running on top of Synchronet comparing to only a few I know that run on top of Mystic, thus I'm sure I miss something.

From the other side, I see all the Synchronet boards but few look and feel the same, which is soulless to me. But perhaps it's not tech, but attitude and ambition of the sysops to stay focused on features, not design of their boards these days.. I'm all into ANSI design/flow niche file and messaging with a style. I'm not sure how representative I am.

-h1

... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a copy.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

Both Synchronet and Mystic suffer from people hosting fairly generic
BBSes without making any effort to individualize them. That's just my
hot take ;)

That what I meant in previous post when I thought soulless. And that's also why I keep my setups offline and available under LAN.

Until setup is personalized.. it just looks like 10 other that come looking like little love was given to them.

It was great when it was first BBS to discover, just to learn the features, but then my personal inspiration is not into tech that runs the board, but focus of the sysop to keep it unique!

-h1

... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a copy.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

(...) - pick yer poison.

Great review!

-h1

... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a copy.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

I better not catch you saying java ever again!
;) hehe

Yea, you and everyone else. :P I got corrected on DoveNet too... TBH, Javascript is what I meant - but thats my ignorance as I didn't even
think of the difference between the two.

Yeah.. I made that mistake as well and DOVENET was fast enough to bitch me and keep my thought vertically correct regarding Javascript vs. Java connection in my vocabulary :>

-h1

... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a copy.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

Yeah.. I made that mistake as well and DOVENET was fast enough to bitch
me and keep my thought vertically correct regarding Javascript vs. Java connection in my vocabulary :>

Well, they are right; Javascript is much m0re than Java was - I didn't even 'know' the difference - but do now. :P



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

That what I meant in previous post when I thought soulless. And that's also why I keep my setups offline and available under LAN.

Yep, understood. I, like you, prefer to make everything look the way I want before opening it up to the world. I can keep tweaking after I reach a certain state that I'm comfortable with, but I want the experience to be unique and polished from the start :)

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (21:4/173)

Well, they are right; Javascript is much m0re than Java was - I didn't even 'know' the difference - but do now. :P

Java is excellent at what it does, and is still an industry leader in a lot of places. JavaScript isn't really a competitor or anything, the intended use case and problems it addresses are completely different. But yeah, it's always seemed screwy to me that they chose to use the name "javascript"...alas...

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (21:4/173)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: paulie420 to toofargone on Mon Apr 03 2023 06:25 pm

Synchronet - The professional software.

You inspired me to write this: http://wiki.synchro.net/wiki:user:digital_man#is_synchronet_pd_or_l33t :-)
--
digital man (rob)

Breaking Bad quote #8:
I want Shania Twain to give me a tuggy. Guess what? That ain't happening either Norco, CA WX: 59.2°F, 78.0% humidity, 0 mph NE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (21:1/183)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: paulie420 to toofargone on Mon Apr 03 2023 06:25 pm

Synchronet - The professional software.

You inspired me to write this: http://wiki.synchro.net/wiki:user:digital_man#is_synchronet_pd_or_l33t :-) --
digital man (rob)

I never thought of Synchronet to be "l33t" software. I thought in 2000 and now in 2023 as a multi-purpose software that can be pretty much what you want it to be. A blank slate where you can modify and customize it to what you want it to be.

Back in the day, Renegade was the "l33t" software and the cool kids ran that, while the "adults" (and older teens) ran WWIV, VBBS, Maximus, Wildcat, or MajorBBS.

Mystic has been the "scene" or "l33t" software for a while, and that's fine. But these days Enigma 1/2 seems to be the new l33t kid on the block.

Overall there's something for everyone. And that's what makes BBSing cool even in 2023.

*** Diamond Dave ***
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Win32
* Origin: Diamond Mine Online BBS 21:1/194 bbs.dmine.net:24 (21:1/194)

On 10 Apr 2023 at 07:22p, esc pondered and said...

Well, they are right; Javascript is much m0re than Java was - I didn' even 'know' the difference - but do now. :P

Java is excellent at what it does, and is still an industry leader in a lot of places. JavaScript isn't really a competitor or anything, the intended use case and problems it addresses are completely different.
But yeah, it's always seemed screwy to me that they chose to use the
name "javascript"...alas...

It was originally called "LiveScript". But at the time, it
looked like Java was absolutely huge, and it really seemed
like Java would sweep away all that had come before it. The
name change was a bit of an attempt to grab some of the
associated cachet.

But Java and JavaScript are indeed two very different
languages.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

Back in the day, Renegade was the "l33t" software and the cool kids ran that, >while the "adults" (and older teens) ran WWIV, VBBS, Maximus, Wildcat, or >MajorBBS.

Um...I'm pretty sure the cool kids were running T.A.G. back in the day. (Just ìlike today...) :P ;)

... Error 3032 - Recursion error. See error 3032.

---
* Origin: WalledCTTY (21:2/145)

Back in the day, Renegade was the "l33t" software and the cool kids ran that, >while the "adults" (and older teens) ran WWIV, VBBS, Maximus, Wildcat, or >MajorBBS.

Um...I'm pretty sure the cool kids were running T.A.G. back in the day. (Just like today...) :P ;)

... Error 3032 - Recursion error. See error 3032.

---
* Origin: WalledCTTY (21:2/145)

There's like only one T.A.G. BBS that I'm aware of, and one more that may be coming back.

So do you run T.A.G. as well? That would make two. :)

Yes, one cool group of three kids (and I do mean kids) ran a T.A.G. BBS back in Pittsburgh in the early 90s.

*** Diamond Dave ***
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Win32
* Origin: Diamond Mine Online BBS 21:1/194 bbs.dmine.net:24 (21:1/194)

Re: Re: Synchronet & JavaScript
By: paulie420 to Nightfox on Thu Apr 06 2023 06:47 pm

hardware... thats one of the powerful things about Sync is that it helps a sysop create a board thats friendly to all different terminals, screen sizes and fonts/etc.

I'm hoping to 'heavily' modify Synchro into something that IS geared towards old hardware and their native terminals; C=, 40 column Amiga, topaz ASCII and 80 column IBM ANSI... I'm thinking that Synchro will allow me to provide a board that any old system can connect to and l00k correct.

Yeah, I like that Synchronet is really flexible. I think I've customized my BBS a fair bit, with mods for the various pieces, but I still feel like it could be modded a lot further. Sometimes I try to think of some interesting new ideas for ways I could mod it, but sometimes it feels like it's hard to think of new things.

Nightfox

There's like only one T.A.G. BBS that I'm aware of, and one more that
may be coming back.

Three boards!? It's an *organization* now!

So do you run T.A.G. as well? That would make two. :)

I do. But I was just joking about the old 'my $x is better than yours' ìarguments from back in the day. PC vs. Mac, Atari vs. Amiga, Star Trek vs. ìStar Wars, Sega vs. Nintendo, etc. I *think* there was T.A.G. vs. Renegade ìcontention, which is funny because I'm pretty sure they were both borne out of ì(unofficially?) released WWIV code? (That may or may not be correct...those ìmemories are...dusty.)

I'm running it because it's like an old friend. I don't doubt that there are ìother (probably better, definitely easier) solutions now, like the various ìmodern board software packages, but part of the challenge for me has been ìgetting an old computer with old software back on-line and doing something ìamusing (if not useful) with it.

... Drive not ready: Abort, Retry, Fail, Wait?

---
* Origin: WalledCTTY (21:2/145)

I just read it. Awesome take on it DM. Thank you for all your dedication
to BBSes!

-Nugax (cbbs)


--- CyberBBS v1.0.11 2023/04/10 [Debian Linux/x64]
* Origin: CyberBBS WHQ BBS | Telnet: whq.cyberbbs.dev:6023 (21:1/167)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: hollowone to toofargone on Sun Apr 09 2023 12:55 pm

From the other side, I see all the Synchronet boards but few look and feel the same, which is soulless to me. But perhaps it's not tech, but attitude

When you say "few look and feel the same", I understand that as meaning they tend to look different? And it sounds like you say that like it's a bad thing..?

Nightfox

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: paulie420 to hollowone on Sun Apr 09 2023 06:38 pm

Well, they are right; Javascript is much m0re than Java was - I didn't even 'know' the difference - but do now. :P

They're used for completely different purposes. And what do you mean by "Java was" (past tense)? I thought Java was still fairly commonly used.

https://www.futurelearn.com/info/blog/what-is-java-used-for https://www.coursera.org/articles/what-is-java-used-for


One of the big drivers of the use of Java has been the Android platform for smartphones, though it now supports Kotlin as a development language, and I think many Android developers have been moving to Kotlin.

Nightfox

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: Digital Man to paulie420 on Mon Apr 10 2023 11:56 pm

http://wiki.synchro.net/wiki:user:digital_man#is_synchronet_pd_or_l33t :-)

That was interesting to read (and I like that you added the software interview tips at the bottom).

I didn't know your BBS was part of the 'l33t' scene originally. I didn't use many of those types of boards back in the 90s. When I ran my original BBS, I did have a few users who sent me an email saying something along the lines of "I heard this was a warez BBS; how do I get access to that?" And I was always baffled by that, as I didn't run that kind of BBS, so I didn't know where they had heard that. But then I thought they might have been from law enforcement or something and perhaps looking for those types of BBSes to bust. I always thought it would have been a bit risky to run a BBS like that.

Nightfox

When you say "few look and feel the same", I understand that as meaning they tend to look different? And it sounds like you say that like it's
a bad thing..?

It is a bit of a bad thing to me. Perhaps too strong expression. Not convincing sounds better with me.

Also, not that I'd like to offend anybody.

My BBS story for the first year was with Synchronet. I had no idea there is something different. I found AmigaCity.xyz (+o MarissaG)
- Great first impression,
- friendly and responsive sysop who answered all my newbie questions related to navigation
- a year of conversations on DOVENET.
- some amiga stuff locally available but nothing you can't google these days.

My hook was in discussion groups and FTNs available there. It gave me that long forgotten Usenet feeling from the 90s. But I also only found DOVENET as the active set of groups and very specific on top topics that are most popular over there. I also found it provocative to wake up bad person in me sometimes and I needed a break.

That's how I tried other boards, mostly Synchronet to find that the only difference in most is URL and sysop, same look and feel, same FTNs, primarily focused on DOVENET.

I almost got bored to death to forget about this BBS thin until I found Anachronist on Discord and he showed me his board.

A complete reboot, lost of work to have the board look unique, offer unique content and to create and maintain, small but vivid and friendly community.

I found then just a few with similar attitude on the delivery side.

20forBeers quite recently convinced me very much as basically the only alternative to Absinthe, for similar reasons. Lot of heart and hard work put into securing uniqueness and local community. Xibalba, d1st, those become intriguing too.

Again, I have not written it to offend anybody, nor blame the engine. And I have perhaps tested only about 20-30 boards all along my last 3-4 years of BBSing as a consumer, but what I find less attractive comparing boards if I see them being vanilla engine/generic.

It has to have something unique, a hook to let me think about coming back. Either advertised clearly if this is about gaming or file resources by type or whatever, local community is strong trigger to me, or art and the feeling that I need to learn to discover more in a visually attractive way that can test my patience and TTY skill and on the way of discovering I can appreciate sysop playing that game with me.

... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a copy.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: Abbub to Diamond Dave on Tue Apr 11 2023 07:23 am

Um...I'm pretty sure the cool kids were running T.A.G. back in the day. (Just ìlike today...) :P ;)

All of the guys hanging out on The Pirate's Hollow (510) were way too cool for my crowd. Powerful Paul ran it, if memory serves, and it was running TAG.

Rat Head Systems (also in 510) was running Telegard, but they were pretty cool, too.

They were a bunch of t-file writers, I still have their work on my BBS.

http://www.textfiles.com/groups/SHAWN/

"Many of these files are gone forever. Some of them deserve this fate. The writing is intensely young here, which isn't to suggest that there aren't a few hidden treasures among the muck. Don't expect much in the way of rational, well-thought opines: what follows is a product of its own age, with its own rules, not to be judged on any standards other than its own. What is most rewarding about the SDLBP files, however, is the opportunity to watch young writers emerge from a spot where nothing lay before. Many of the participants have gone on to much bigger things; some are sysadmins at major UNIX sites, others engaged in graduate study. Some are unemployed and some are lost.

These files remind you that the place that you came from is gone."
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: Diamond Dave to Digital Man on Tue Apr 11 2023 06:36 am

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: paulie420 to toofargone on Mon Apr 03 2023 06:25 pm

Synchronet - The professional software.

You inspired me to write this: http://wiki.synchro.net/wiki:user:digital_man#is_synchronet_pd_or_l33t

I never thought of Synchronet to be "l33t" software.

That's definitely how it started, back in 1990/91. The initial focus was all about the file transfers. We even had a feature called "Elite text" that was used to hide portions of message text, only visible to users with the 'E' exemption (or flag, I don't remember). Fun times.
--
digital man (rob)

Synchronet/BBS Terminology Definition #37:
FTSC = FidoNet Technical Standards Committee
Norco, CA WX: 74.8°F, 53.0% humidity, 5 mph SE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (21:1/183)

Synchronet - The professional software.

You inspired me to write this: http://wiki.synchro.net/wiki:user:digital_man#is_synchronet_pd_or_l33t
:-) --
digital man (rob)

Thanks for that write-up; honestly, I had ZERO knowledge of Synchro's very early beginnings... I remember seeing the first Synchronet ad in Boardwatch and noticing, while still costing $299 if I remember, that is was the 'budget professional' choice for multi-node bbS softwarez; I was blown away by the features [that grew and grew as the months went on] it provided for the money.

I was never a multi-node bbS - well; I did get up to two, but that don't really count... as such, I never paid for Synchronet in the 9os... its really interesting reading about how you had to change what you started in order for Sync to GET those professional bbS orders.

Interesting; thanks for sharing and I think that was a great addition to the Wiki!



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

I never thought of Synchronet to be "l33t" software. I thought in 2000
and now in 2023 as a multi-purpose software that can be pretty much what you want it to be. A blank slate where you can modify and customize it
to what you want it to be.

Same - thats how I remember it! I remember seeing Synchronet growing and showing up at BBSCON(?) with their famous blimp... it was the little guy that grew into something much larger.

Back in the day, Renegade was the "l33t" software and the cool kids ran that, while the "adults" (and older teens) ran WWIV, VBBS, Maximus, Wildcat, or MajorBBS.

Same. PC-Board, Renegade and then Obv/2 and all the forks.



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

Back in the day, Renegade was the "l33t" software and the cool kids ran t >while the "adults" (and older teens) ran WWIV, VBBS, Maximus, Wildcat, or >MajorBBS.

Um...I'm pretty sure the cool kids were running T.A.G. back in the day. (Just ìlike today...) :P ;)

So... was TAG the precursor to Telegard, or am I mistaken? I started out on Telegard... I think 3.x - and quickly went to Renegade as all of us were doing back then.



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

There's like only one T.A.G. BBS that I'm aware of, and one more that
may be coming back.

Address?



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

I'm hoping to 'heavily' modify Synchro into something that IS geared towards old hardware and their native terminals.

Yeah, I like that Synchronet is really flexible. I think I've
customized my BBS a fair bit, with mods for the various pieces, but I still feel like it could be modded a lot further. Sometimes I try to think of some interesting new ideas for ways I could mod it, but
sometimes it feels like it's hard to think of new things.

Thats why I quoted 'heavily'... I'm wanting to use Synchronet to create a very retro-friendly bbS geared towards 8088-486 machines and hopefully adding C= (40 columns) and Amigafont themes for other brands.

Thats one thing that Sync does very well - it can handle many different types of computers that dial in... sure, Mystic can do the same - BUT I wasn't a pro sysop in 2o19 and built a bbS that is geared towards current terminal softwarez. When I dial into 2oFB w/ say... a 486 machine - things look MOSTLY correct; but I wanna build something that looks perfect no matter what old hardware users dial in with.

'heavily'. :P



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: paulie420 to Digital Man on Tue Apr 11 2023 04:10 pm

Thanks for that write-up; honestly, I had ZERO knowledge of Synchro's very early beginnings... I remember seeing the first Synchronet ad in Boardwatch and noticing, while still costing $299 if I remember, that is was the 'budget professional' choice for multi-node bbS softwarez;

It was. I do think we always had a version in the $99 range (1 or 2 node?) too. Glad you saw one of our ads. They weren't cheap. :-)_
--
digital man (rob)

Breaking Bad quote #26:
Your commercials suck ass. I've seen better acting in an epileptic whorehouse. Norco, CA WX: 65.2°F, 69.0% humidity, 5 mph SE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (21:1/183)

Digital Man wrote to Diamond Dave <=-

That's definitely how it started, back in 1990/91. The initial focus
was all about the file transfers. We even had a feature called "Elite text" that was used to hide portions of message text, only visible to users with the 'E' exemption (or flag, I don't remember). Fun times. --

My "elite files" option off the main menu would send simulated line
noise and hang up. :)



... What's behind this door? What door?
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

paulie420 wrote to Digital Man <=-

I was never a multi-node bbS - well; I did get up to two, but that
don't really count...

My othernet hub, back in the day, ran 10 DOS nodes running Remote
Access. He needed another node for a file server, some DOS-level
networking that wasn't LANTastic, and a room full of beige desktops
running on baker's racks with cabling everywhere. It was a pretty
amazing sight to see back then.

The saving grace was that he had these running in his office (he had a
full-time consulting business) and power was included in the rent.



... What's up that way?
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

On 11 Apr 23 16:10:44, paulie420 wrote:

Synchronet - The professional software.

You inspired me to write this: http://wiki.synchro.net/wiki:user:digital_man#is_synchronet_pd_or_l33t :-) --
digital man (rob)

Thanks for that write-up; honestly I had ZERO knowledge of Synchros very early beginnings... I remember seeing the first Synchronet ad in Boardwatch and noticing while still costing $299 if I remember that is was the budget professional choice for multi-node bbS softwarez; I was blown away by the features [that grew and grew as the months went on] it provided for the money.

I was never a multi-node bbS - well; I did get up to two but that dont really count... as such I never paid for Synchronet in the 9os... its really interesting reading about how you had to change what you started in order for Sync to GET those professional bbS orders.

Interesting; thanks for sharing and I think that was a great addition to the Wiki!

|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

I remmeber sbbs early beginnings. however,i was like 12-13 and it cost far
more money than i could muster up. i usually used shareware stuff or free.

-Nugax (cbbs)


--- CyberBBS v1.0.11 2023/04/11 [Debian Linux/x64]
* Origin: CyberBBS WHQ BBS | Telnet: whq.cyberbbs.dev:6023 (21:1/167)

They're used for completely different purposes. And what do you mean by "Java was" (past tense)? I thought Java was still fairly commonly used.

I still find it fascinating on how Java and other languages are viewed.

E.g., Python is older than Java, yet Java oftentimes seems old in the tooth.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: Adept to Nightfox on Wed Apr 12 2023 09:08 pm

I still find it fascinating on how Java and other languages are viewed.

E.g., Python is older than Java, yet Java oftentimes seems old in the tooth.

Maybe there are things Python does that people feel it still does fairly well. Also, by 2010, I remember seeing warnings that Python 3 had made some breaking changes where some Python 2.x code wouldn't work anymore, so perhaps there were some significant changes in Python 3 that helped it in that regard.

Also, people sometimes say C++ is fairly old, but C++ has gained some interesting modern features since C++11, and development of the C++ language has been fairly active since then. C++ is still used in some projects.

Nightfox

DOVENET as the active set of groups and very specific on top topics that are most popular over there. I also found it provocative to wake up bad person in me sometimes and I needed a break.

I think this is why I've never felt particularly compelled to add DOVENET to my board.

Well, that, and it's not like I even get through all the FSXnet messages, or the couple of FIDOnet bases I'd bother checking.

But FSXnet is nice, since, while we can get prickly from time to time, the no politics and religion bit keeps me from getting too frustrated or involved.

And I guess I did add a person to the twit filter, at some point.

But, anyway, yes, normally FSXnet is a friendly place. Easier to stay engaged with that, and easier to be nice.

It has to have something unique, a hook to let me think about coming

I guess there aren't a lot of people who check what random holiday it is today, based off the ANSIs on my BBS, but it still feels kinda neat to have something fairly unique.

I should probably just turn it into something for other people to run, because, hey, it'd also be neat to have something that's run on a variety of BBSs.

But, regardless, it's nice for the fact that I can point at something I did, even if I don't do much of anything else. :)

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

Re: RE: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: nugax to paulie420 on Wed Apr 12 2023 07:18 am

I remmeber sbbs early beginnings. however,i was like 12-13 and it cost far more money than i could muster up. i usually used shareware stuff or free.

Yeah, at the time, Synchronet probably would have cost a bit much for me too (I was 14 years old when I started my first BBS). Also, somehow I wasn't aware of Synchronet at the time either. I don't remember seeeing any Synchronet BBSes in my area in the 90s.

Nightfox

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: Adept to Nightfox on Wed Apr 12 2023 09:08 pm

E.g., Python is older than Java, yet Java oftentimes seems old in the tooth.

Wow. I did not know that (and a quick web-lookup confirms that). I definitely have thought (before now) of Python as being (much) newer than Java.
--
digital man (rob)

Breaking Bad quote #46:
If I ever get anal polyps, at least I know what to name them. - Saul Goodman Norco, CA WX: 63.2°F, 73.0% humidity, 4 mph ESE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (21:1/183)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: Nightfox to Adept on Wed Apr 12 2023 02:31 pm

Also, people sometimes say C++ is fairly old,

C++ was first released in 1985. That is fairly old I think.

but C++ has gained some
interesting modern features since C++11, and development of the C++ language has been fairly active since then.

Yup.

C++ is still used in some projects.

Wow, that's an understatement. Your web browser and your office applications, whatever they are, are most likely written in (or contain significant components written in) C++.
--
digital man (rob)

Synchronet/BBS Terminology Definition #5:
ATASCII = ATARI Standard Code for Information Interchange
Norco, CA WX: 63.2°F, 73.0% humidity, 4 mph ESE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (21:1/183)

Thanks for that write-up; honestly, I had ZERO knowledge of Synchro's v early beginnings... I remember seeing the first Synchronet ad in Boardw and noticing, while still costing $299 if I remember, that is was the 'budget professional' choice for multi-node bbS softwarez;

It was. I do think we always had a version in the $99 range (1 or 2
node?) too. Glad you saw one of our ads. They weren't cheap. :-)_

Heres another funny tidbit - while I grabbed a copy of the multi-node software very close to its release, I was too scared to run it bad then. I literally thought the 'Synchronet Police' would report me to the FEDS and bring the search warrant!!! :P

I played around w/ it - hell, even shared it - but never put it online. I remember when you flew the blimp and was st0ked to see your [years old] video showing that blimp off to us in current times. :P



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

I was never a multi-node bbS - well; I did get up to two, but that don't really count...

My othernet hub, back in the day, ran 10 DOS nodes running Remote
Access. He needed another node for a file server, some DOS-level
networking that wasn't LANTastic, and a room full of beige desktops
running on baker's racks with cabling everywhere. It was a pretty
amazing sight to see back then.

The saving grace was that he had these running in his office (he had a
full-time consulting business) and power was included in the rent.

Thats rad - Remote Access was one of my fav softwares too... I liked it, Virtual and VBBS; they all felt kinda 'similar' IMO.

I remember most multi-node boards in my area ran MajorBBS or... what was the one w/ the horse - Mustang.

In the (419), the best multi-line board was Omni-Link... running Major BBS for its teleconferencing w/ games; its where I met most of my actual friends while in high school... I remember the house parties AT the Omni-Link house, and a few of us were able to get into that room - the one w/ all the beige CPUs and several monitors. :P

That is one thing that IS gone - the days of a multi-node BBS sysop having an entire bbS room w/ hardware buzzing along. :P



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

I remmeber sbbs early beginnings. however,i was like 12-13 and it cost
far more money than i could muster up. i usually used shareware stuff or free.

Yet another reason why I was a Telegard/Renegade sysop. :P



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: paulie420 to Digital Man on Wed Apr 12 2023 03:35 pm

Thanks for that write-up; honestly, I had ZERO knowledge of Synchro's v early beginnings... I remember seeing the first Synchronet ad in Boardw and noticing, while still costing $299 if I remember, that is was the 'budget professional' choice for multi-node bbS softwarez;

It was. I do think we always had a version in the $99 range (1 or 2 node?) too. Glad you saw one of our ads. They weren't cheap. :-)_

Heres another funny tidbit - while I grabbed a copy of the multi-node software very close to its release, I was too scared to run it bad then. I literally thought the 'Synchronet Police' would report me to the FEDS and bring the search warrant!!! :P

I played around w/ it - hell, even shared it - but never put it online. I remember when you flew the blimp and was st0ked to see your [years old] video showing that blimp off to us in current times. :P

There was a crack and 250-node key combo that was created and released (for sbbs v2) at some point too. I think I have it available for download on Vertrauen. It turns out roll-your-own-copy-protection is probably not the best idea I've ever had. :-)
--
digital man (rob)

Breaking Bad quote #19:
Yeah, I know these two knob jobs. - Hank Schrader
Norco, CA WX: 61.9°F, 76.0% humidity, 12 mph S wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (21:1/183)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Wed Apr 12 2023 03:03 pm

Also, people sometimes say C++ is fairly old,

C++ was first released in 1985. That is fairly old I think.

For some reason I thought C++ was even older than that. I just double-checked, and I see CFront existed around 1983:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cfront

C++ is still used in some projects.

Wow, that's an understatement. Your web browser and your office applications, whatever they are, are most likely written in (or contain significant components written in) C++.

Yep, I'm aware.

Some people seem to have the mindset that you wouldn't want to use C++ anymore though. I've used C++ at most of the software jobs I've had, though I know other developers who have rarely used it.

I suppose I should have worded it better than "some projects".

Nightfox

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: paulie420 to poindexter FORTRAN on Wed Apr 12 2023 03:39 pm

Thats rad - Remote Access was one of my fav softwares too... I liked it, Virtual and VBBS; they all felt kinda 'similar' IMO.

RemoteAccess was one that I liked too. I used RemoteAccess for my original BBS in the 90s.

I remember most multi-node boards in my area ran MajorBBS or... what was the one w/ the horse - Mustang.

Maybe you're thinking of Mustang Software, the company that made Wildcat?

Nightfox

There was a crack and 250-node key combo that was created and released (for sbbs v2) at some point too. I think I have it available for
download on Vertrauen. It turns out roll-your-own-copy-protection is probably not the best idea I've ever had. :-)

You got me w/ this one... I'll come by and search for it - wonder if its on 2oFB already. :P



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

I remember most multi-node boards in my area ran MajorBBS or... what the one w/ the horse - Mustang.

Maybe you're thinking of Mustang Software, the company that made Wildcat?

Right - Wildcat! was also a cool one; if the sysop/bbS used it/modified it in a good way... I guess nothings changed in 30+ years. :P



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

well. Also, by 2010, I remember seeing warnings that Python 3 had made some breaking changes where some Python 2.x code wouldn't work anymore,
so perhaps there were some significant changes in Python 3 that helped
it in that regard.

Yeah, though it's not like Java has been without changes.

I figured (but don't really know) that Python found various niches, so expanded in popularity, whereas Java found those things much earlier.

Though it's also a bit different, what with the lack of semi-colons. Personally, while I like the semi-colons for a variety of reasons, it turns out that it's _way_ more hassle to make semi-colons on non-US keyboards.

Also, people sometimes say C++ is fairly old, but C++ has gained some interesting modern features since C++11, and development of the C++ language has been fairly active since then. C++ is still used in some

Makes sense. From when I went to school, I viewed C++11 as being the language one used for parallel-processing things. Realistically, that's way over simplifying things, but clearly whatever they added was absolutely necessary for dealing with newer hardware.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: paulie420 to Nightfox on Wed Apr 12 2023 06:30 pm

Right - Wildcat! was also a cool one; if the sysop/bbS used it/modified it in a good way... I guess nothings changed in 30+ years. :P

It often seened like Wildcat! was a BBS package where sysops tended to use the stock menus & ANSIs (at least, stock-looking). If I didn't know it was a Wildcat BBS when logging in, I could sometimes recognize it was Wildcat by how their menu ANSIs looked.

Nightfox

Hi Digital Man,

There was a crack and 250-node key combo that was created and released
(for sbbs v2) at some point too. I think I have it available for
download on Vertrauen. It turns out roll-your-own-copy-protection is probably not the best idea I've ever had. :-)

Someone will always have a go at cracking or making a keyfile generator.
People will spend lot's of $$ on hardware, but skimp out on the software!



\/orlon
aka
Stephen


--- Talisman v0.47-dev (Linux/m68k)
* Origin: Vorlon Empire: Amiga 3000 powered in Sector 550 (21:1/195.1)

People will spend lot's of $$ on hardware, but skimp out on the software!

I don't mind paying for software but I really object to these subscription models some software companies go for. Take Adobe Acrobat standard.. $19 per month. $228 per year or if you need it for a decade $2280.

I'm surprised Microsoft hasn't moved Windows to a subscription model yet.

Software has never been cheap, the PC can be the cheapest part of the deal depending on what your needs are.

... A Meteor is an example of a rock star.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: third rock bbs: bbs.thirdrockbbs.au (21:3/179)

It often seened like Wildcat! was a BBS package where sysops tended to
use the stock menus & ANSIs (at least, stock-looking). If I didn't know it was a Wildcat BBS when logging in, I could sometimes recognize it was Wildcat by how their menu ANSIs looked.

I like how Shooter uses Wildcat! at Wizards Rainbow - he uses Wildcat! for file areas, the main bbS and other functions... but when you goto doors or messages it rlogins seemlessly to a Mystic install so users can enj0y the messaging system that Mystic uses.

He, as you prolly know, writes sick door games using what I think is the Wildcat! programming language!!



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

Re: Re: Wildcat! bbSes
By: paulie420 to Nightfox on Thu Apr 13 2023 07:46 pm

I like how Shooter uses Wildcat! at Wizards Rainbow - he uses Wildcat! for file areas, the main bbS and other functions... but when you goto doors or messages it rlogins seemlessly to a Mystic install so users can enj0y the messaging system that Mystic uses.

He, as you prolly know, writes sick door games using what I think is the Wildcat! programming language!!

I'm not familiar with him. I've never ran a Wildcat BBS though, so if he wrote only Wildcat doors, I wouldn't have used them.

Nightfox

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: Michael Borthwick to vorlon on Fri Apr 14 2023 01:01 pm

I don't mind paying for software but I really object to these subscription models some software companies go for. Take Adobe Acrobat standard.. $19 per month. $228 per year or if you need it for a decade $2280.

I don't like the subscription model either.. At least with some software, they'll still let you keep using it without updates if you don't renew your subscription - so in that case it's like you purchased it. But if you actually need to keep paying for it to keep using it, I don't like that idea.

I'm surprised Microsoft hasn't moved Windows to a subscription model yet.

I've wondered about that, but from what I've heard, it sounds like Windows is probably a fairly small share of Microsoft's revenue now. It seems PC usership may have shrunk with more people using tablets & smartphones for things. I've also heard business and data centers is where Microsoft is making much of its revenue these days.

Nightfox

I don't mind paying for software but I really object to these
subscription models some software companies go for. Take Adobe Acrobat standard.. $19 per month. $228 per year or if you need it for a decade $2280.

Adobe makes products that I avoid because of the pricing.

On the other hand, I _like_ JetBrain's subscription model. Yeah, you have to pay for it every year, but if you _don't_, you get to keep using the version of the software that was available when you paid for the subscription.

Basically a hybrid between paying for continuous development, and paying for working software, once.

And I like that. If Acrobat cost $80, but you get no further updates unless you pay $80 the next year, I'd be a fan.

But both the price and the, "you have to continue paying" means it's time to explore other options.

Which, thankfully, with most of Adobe's products, is easy enough.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

Adobe makes products that I avoid because of the pricing.

Adobe ain't that expensive comparing to the past, relatively speaking, but you must use it extensively to see the value. If you just need to play around PDF files once a year then Acrobat is not for you.

Also I'd say that most of the functions that Adobe Creative and Document cloud offers today is a technological commodity with a thousand of alternatives for people who are creative enough to check.

-h1

... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a copy.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

I don't mind paying for software but I really object to these
subscription models some software companies go for. Take Adobe Acrobat standard.. $19 per month. $228 per year or if you need it for a decade $2280.

Software-as-a-Service needs to die in a fire for the most part. I don't mind
it when there's a legitimate reason why you'd expect a recurring cost (like cloud storage, for instance), but 90% don't have a legitimate reason, and 50% of the remaining 10% seem to have shoehorned that reason in (like implementing cloud storage when it's completely unnecessary).

---
* Origin: WalledCTTY (21:2/145)

I like how Shooter uses Wildcat! at Wizards Rainbow - he uses Wildcat!

Shows how out of the scene I'd become. I thought his board was 'Bit Sunrise'...turns out he changed it a couple of years back.

---
* Origin: WalledCTTY (21:2/145)

Michael Borthwick wrote to vorlon <=-

People will spend lot's of $$ on hardware, but skimp out on the software!

I don't mind paying for software but I really object to these
subscription models some software companies go for. Take Adobe Acrobat standard.. $19 per month. $228 per year or if you need it for a decade $2280.

If you need it occasionally, being able to pay for a month when you only
use it once a year is nice -- but thet's definitely an edge case.

Recurring revenue is their way - less peaks and valleys, no compelling
people to upgrade software (which seems like it was done mostly to
charge for a new version)

Now, with Office, you do get web versions of the apps and
OneDrive/Outlook. The Adobe value proposition is a little harder to sell
-- who needs another cloud storage service that only your creatives use?





... Remove ambiguities and convert to specifics
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

Nightfox wrote to Michael Borthwick <=-

smartphones for things. I've also heard business and data centers is where Microsoft is making much of its revenue these days.

People aren't buying new PCs as quickly, since a 5 year old i5 is still
pretty darn good. Azure cloud services revenue is increasing as people
move corporate workflows to the cloud - and create hybrid on-prem/cloud solutions. Just recently, my company moved to Intune for device
management and Azure AD for all of our Windows laptops/desktops. All of
our Active Directory functions are in the cloud, along with mail,
collaboration and file storage. You don't need to connect to the
corporate network for anything except to file an expense report, now.



... Is it finished?
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

Adept wrote to Michael Borthwick <=-

I don't mind paying for software but I really object to these
subscription models some software companies go for. Take Adobe Acrobat standard.. $19 per month. $228 per year or if you need it for a decade $2280.

Adobe makes products that I avoid because of the pricing.

I still have my trusty paid copy of Photoshop CS2. Does most everything I
need, and Adobe released bogus serial numbers when they took the legacy activation servers down without realizing how many people still used
CS2. :)




... Into the impossible
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: Michael Borthwick to vorlon on Fri Apr 14 2023 01:01 pm

I'm surprised Microsoft hasn't moved Windows to a subscription model yet.

I was talking about this with somebody else last week.

There is a whole lot of stuff the people expects to be free (or "free") and therefore are not going to pay for it unless they see a clear advantage in doing so. Operating Systems are one of these things - they are not free, but people think they are because they typically don't pay for them explicitly.

If you made most people pay for a Windows subscription they would stay with the last Windows version that was subscription-free for decades to come.

If we were talking about Enterprise use, the tale would be different, but domestic users don't give a damn about the software they use.


--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

And I like that. If Acrobat cost $80, but you get no further updates unless you pay $80 the next year, I'd be a fan.

I'd happly pay a larger price for a one off, I'm not a business so constant upgrades really aren't high on my priorities. As long as I can edit PDF's that's fine by me.

Which, thankfully, with most of Adobe's products, is easy enough.

I've tried several PDF editors (and paid for them) but I find nothing edits PDF files like acrobat. I use GIMP for photo editing and I don't really have the need for software like lightroom or any of their other creative packages.

... Do device drivers need a chauffeur's license?

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: third rock bbs: bbs.thirdrockbbs.au (21:3/179)

Also I'd say that most of the functions that Adobe Creative and Document cloud offers today is a technological commodity with a thousand of alternatives for people who are creative enough to check.

I made the switch to linux a few months ago on all of my PC's (except one windows vm to run windows specific software). There are heaps of free software packages that do pretty much the same thing ie. GIMP. I just can't find anything that edits PDFs as well as acrobat.

... Why is the man who invests all your money called a broker?

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: third rock bbs: bbs.thirdrockbbs.au (21:3/179)

Software-as-a-Service needs to die in a fire for the most part. I don't mind it when there's a legitimate reason why you'd expect a recurring
cost (like cloud storage, for instance), but 90% don't have a legitimate reason, and 50% of the remaining 10% seem to have shoehorned that reason in (like implementing cloud storage when it's completely unnecessary).

This! I paid for a Ham Radio Deluxe a while back but didn't keep up the maintenance subscription so I'm stuck with an old version but it does what I need so I don't really care. It's just a way to suck money out of people that think they need the latest and greatest when they really don't.

... A book misplaced is a book lost

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: third rock bbs: bbs.thirdrockbbs.au (21:3/179)

Now, with Office, you do get web versions of the apps and OneDrive/Outlook. The Adobe value proposition is a little harder to sell -- who needs another cloud storage service that only your creatives use?

I don't really have the need for cloud anything. I have a sturdy file server and redundant-redundant backups as well as only using the software from my pc. LibreOffice does, for me, the exact same job as office.

Everyone is different though. I wish they would take that into account instead of offering these types of packages.

... The caterpillar does all the work but the butterfly gets all the publicity

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: third rock bbs: bbs.thirdrockbbs.au (21:3/179)

People aren't buying new PCs as quickly, since a 5 year old i5 is still pretty darn good. Azure cloud services revenue is increasing as people

I think the only people that buy new PC's or constantly upgrade are gamers or those people that are in competition to be the benchmark kings/queens.

All my PC's are at least 5 years old and run whatever I need them to run perfectly fine!

... System halted - Press all keys at once to continue

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: third rock bbs: bbs.thirdrockbbs.au (21:3/179)

On 13 Apr 2023, paulie420 said the following...

He, as you prolly know, writes sick door games using what I think is the Wildcat! programming language!!

And his father played a mean guitar and wrote some really great songs...

... Tech support is just a busy signal away

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: The Wrong Number Family Of BBS' - Wrong Number ][ (21:4/131)

On Friday April 14 2023, Michael Borthwick said to vorlon:

People will spend lot's of $$ on hardware, but skimp out on the
software!

I don't mind paying for software but I really object to these
subscription models some software companies go for. Take Adobe Acrobat standard.. $19 per month. $228 per year or if you need it for a decade $2280.

They go that route to keep in income stream comming in.

I'm surprised Microsoft hasn't moved Windows to a subscription model
yet.

They would love to!

Software has never been cheap, the PC can be the cheapest part of the
deal depending on what your needs are.

About 8 years ago, someone wanted me to build them a "Gaming" rig. The video card alone was $500-600! The cost of Windows was the lowest in that build.



--- Zeus BBS 1.5
* Origin: -:-- Dragon's Lair --:- dragon.vk3heg.net Prt: 6800 (21:1/195.5)

BY: Abbub (21:2/145)

|11A|09> |10Software-as-a-Service needs to die in a fire for the most part. I don't|07
|11A|09> |10mind|07
|11A|09> |10it when there's a legitimate reason why you'd expect a recurring cost|07
|11A|09> |10(like|07
|11A|09> |10cloud storage, for instance), but 90% don't have a legitimate reason,|07
|11A|09> |10and 50%|07
|11A|09> |10of the remaining 10% seem to have shoehorned that reason in (like|07
|11A|09> |10implementing|07
|11A|09> |10cloud storage when it's completely unnecessary).|07
They want the ongoing revenue. But there are times like in Winserver where the owner does not update their software and still expects to feed them 229 a year for updates.


--- WWIV 5.8.0.3681[Windows]
* Origin: inland utopia * california * iutopia.duckdns.org:2023 (21:4/108)

BY: Adept (21:2/108)

|11A|09> |10On the other hand, I _like_ JetBrain's subscription model. Yeah, you|07
|11A|09> |10have to|07
|11A|09> |10pay for it every year, but if you _don't_, you get to keep using the|07
|11A|09> |10version of the software that was available when you paid for the|07 |11A|09> |10subscription.|07
I think that is the same for winserver, but you have to pay a reconnect fee to use the current version if you don't go on an AUP.


--- WWIV 5.8.0.3681[Windows]
* Origin: inland utopia * california * iutopia.duckdns.org:2023 (21:4/108)

They want the ongoing revenue. But there are times like in Winserver
where the owner does not update their software and still expects to
feed them 229 a year for updates.

Sure. I get that. And they're also (to some degree) caught between a rock and
a hard place, because mobile has kind of 'devalued' software to some degree. "Why should I pay $90 for this desktop app when something on my phone costs $3?!"

---
* Origin: WalledCTTY (21:2/145)

Michael Borthwick wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

Everyone is different though. I wish they would take that into account instead of offering these types of packages.

You can also buy standalone retail copies of Office, licensed perpetually.

If the company you work for has a volume license agreement (most do) you
may be able to buy copies through the Home Use Program.

I bought Office 2016 for $14.99 through mine.




... The Machine keeps pushing time through the cogs, like paste into strings --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

Michael Borthwick wrote to Adept <=-

I've tried several PDF editors (and paid for them) but I find nothing edits PDF files like acrobat. I use GIMP for photo editing and I don't really have the need for software like lightroom or any of their other creative packages.

I just had to edit two PDF files, and tried Acrobat online. It let me
delete a page from the first PDF, when I tried on the second PDF it
threw up a subscription page. :(



... Observe the procedures of a general alert.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

Bucko wrote to paulie420 <=-

And his father played a mean guitar and wrote some really great
songs...

Shooter ain't no slouch in the music department, either.



... ZIMA TASTES BETTER WHEN IT'S ILLEGAL
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

Vorlon wrote to Michael Borthwick <=-

I'm surprised Microsoft hasn't moved Windows to a subscription model
yet.

They would love to!

Yeah, but they get a cut of the sales cost of EVERY FRAKKING PC SOLD.
That'll keep them happy.




... ZIMA TASTES BETTER WHEN IT'S ILLEGAL
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

Re: Re: Wildcat! bbSes
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Bucko on Sat Apr 15 2023 09:35 am

Bucko wrote to paulie420 <=-

And his father played a mean guitar and wrote some really great songs...

Shooter ain't no slouch in the music department, either.

Truth.
--
digital man (rob)

Breaking Bad quote #12:
[Walt] Looks like Keith Richards with a glass a warm milk! - Hank Schrader Norco, CA WX: 68.8°F, 50.0% humidity, 0 mph E wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (21:1/183)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Vorlon on Sat Apr 15 2023 09:36 am

Yeah, but they get a cut of the sales cost of EVERY FRAKKING PC SOLD. That'll keep them happy.

I would likely go Mac or Linux.
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Win32
* Origin: -=[conchaos.synchro.net | ConstructiveChaos BBS]=- (21:4/141)

On 15 Apr 2023, poindexter FORTRAN said the following...

Shooter ain't no slouch in the music department, either.

Very true!! :)

... The caterpillar does all the work but the butterfly gets all the publicity

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: The Wrong Number Family Of BBS' - Wrong Number ][ (21:4/131)

Re: Re: Wildcat! bbSes
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Bucko on Sat Apr 15 2023 09:35 am

Shooter ain't no slouch in the music department, either.

It's funny you mention that. Of course most of knows that Shooter runs a really cool BBS (a Wildcat/Mystic hybrid) and makes some really cool door games. He even did some graphics for my Telnet BBS Guide website!

I met him in person about 7 years ago. He did a concert about an hour from me. I even took my wife to meet him. He's a REALLY nice guy!

And yes, he is no slouch in the music department! :)

*** Diamond Dave ***
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Win32
* Origin: Diamond Mine Online BBS 21:1/194 bbs.dmine.net:24 (21:1/194)

On Saturday April 15 2023, Poindexter Fortran said to Vorlon:

Vorlon wrote to Michael Borthwick <=-

I'm surprised Microsoft hasn't moved Windows to a subscription model
yet.

They would love to!

Yeah, but they get a cut of the sales cost of EVERY FRAKKING PC SOLD. That'll keep them happy.

PC's don't *have* to be sold with MS software on them. It's the brand name
ones that have agreements in place.

The issue is avergae joe, who dosn't know better, plus a huge range of
software catters for that one company's offerings.

Just imagine if the likes of Commodore had survived and the Amiga range of computers was still a huge thing and not retro like it is now....


--- Zeus BBS 1.5
* Origin: -:-- Dragon's Lair --:- dragon.vk3heg.net Prt: 6800 (21:1/195.5)

He, as you prolly know, writes sick door games using what I think is Wildcat! programming language!!

And his father played a mean guitar and wrote some really great songs...

As does he...



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

Adobe ain't that expensive comparing to the past, relatively speaking,
but you must use it extensively to see the value. If you just need to
play around PDF files once a year then Acrobat is not for you.

Yeah. So it's a pro market, and that's about it. So I'll have it at work, and that's where they'll make their money.

But things like Photoshop... I'm never going to be in the market for that. Though, at this point, I'd pay more for GIMP just because I'm used to it.

Thankfully it's open source anyway, though I should probably consider sending along money to something, as I've been more inclined to do for the products I end up using.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

Which, thankfully, with most of Adobe's products, is easy enough.

I've tried several PDF editors (and paid for them) but I find nothing edits PDF files like acrobat. I use GIMP for photo editing and I don't

Yeah, editing PDFs is a challenging point.

I guess I mostly avoid that, at this point, preferring to keep stuff in other formats and just printing to PDF.

But when I had a scanner, and would want to combine two PDFs, I'm not really sure how I would've done it without Acrobat.

Though, thankfully in that case, the software was not a subscription, so it worked as long as the scanner did.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

On 16 Apr 2023, Adept said the following...

Yeah, editing PDFs is a challenging point.

But when I had a scanner, and would want to combine two PDFs, I'm not really sure how I would've done it without Acrobat.

PDFsam (sam = Split & Merge) is a nice free tool to do that:

https://pdfsam.org/pdfsam-basic/

There is a "Pro" version that does more (stuff I don't need) and of course you can't just buy the pro version, it's a yearly cost.


Jay

... I will stop at nothing to avoid using negative numbers

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/03/14 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Northern Realms (21:3/110)

Warpslide wrote to Adept <=-

PDFsam (sam = Split & Merge) is a nice free tool to do that:

https://pdfsam.org/pdfsam-basic/

Thanks for the pointer. All I really need is when I'm making a mixed
duplex PDFs from my scanner to remove blank pages. This should do the
trick nicely. Page rotation, too.





... Powered By Celeron (Tualatin). Engineered for the future.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

PDFsam (sam = Split & Merge) is a nice free tool to do that:

https://pdfsam.org/pdfsam-basic/

Thanks! Yeah, that does seem to do most all that I'd want.

There is a "Pro" version that does more (stuff I don't need) and of
course you can't just buy the pro version, it's a yearly cost.

$60 to $80 a year (at least at the current prices, which are supposedly discounted) for the comment, forms, secure, and maybe OCR abilities.

Which, yeah, probably not going to be using.

And the subscriptions are mostly annoying because, if I'm paying $5+ a month for PDF software, there are probably 20 other programs where it'd be reasonable to do so. And there's just _so_ many subscriptions to have, at this point.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

I made the switch to linux a few months ago on all of my PC's (except one windows vm to run windows specific software). There are heaps of free software packages that do pretty much the same thing ie. GIMP. I just can't find anything that edits PDFs as well as acrobat.

It doesn't need to be free to be good alternative to photoshop.
In Open source there is of course GIMP, Krita, Inkspace.

But as I'm on Mac I also like Pixelmator very much and it was 50 bucks single payment to or so.. (I don't even remember, but more or less like one Playstation game, no more).

Many Open Source programs come with great functionality but learning curve is not exactly easy to tacle. Photoshop wins often just because people know how to use it. This is the space where software like Pixelmator convinced me more than GIMP and I was willing to have one less game monthly to use it.

-h1

... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

Hello poindexter FORTRAN!

Thanks for the pointer. All I really need is when I'm
making a mixed duplex PDFs from my scanner to remove blank
pages. This should do the trick nicely. Page rotation,
too.

To remove, or select specific pages from a specific PDF file, I
just switch to a PDF "printer" such as CutePDF. Then, my OSes
own printer's inteface offers to select specific pages. The
end result is another PDF with the pages I want.

--- OpenXP 5.0.57
* Origin: (} Pointy McPointFace (21:4/106.21)

esc wrote to Gamgee <=-

Yes, if I recall he said it wiped some files, or changed a bunch of permissions, or something similar, and basically trashed the system it was put on. Of course, that has never happened to a single one of the other 845,212 people who have installed Synchronet, but it must be Synchronet's fault... :-)

Well, there have been over 17k pulls of the docker image(s) I have up for Synchronet... though I need to work out a better upgrade for 3.20 from an earlier version, as I've experienced a few issues. But absolutely won't destroy your host from a container.

https://github.com/bbs-io/sychronet-docker

Also should try a recent nightly to see if it initializes okay still. It's not the cleanest usage, but I prefer to keep nearly everything I use containerized with a docker-compose file to go with it. Far easier backup/restore/migrate... etc.


--
Michael J. Ryan
+o roughneckbbs.com
tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)

Tracker1 wrote to Gamgee <=-

esc wrote to Gamgee <=-

Yes, if I recall he said it wiped some files, or changed a bunch of permissions, or something similar, and basically trashed the system it
was put on. Of course, that has never happened to a single one of the other 845,212 people who have installed Synchronet, but it must be Synchronet's fault... :-)

Well, there have been over 17k pulls of the docker image(s) I
have up for Synchronet... though I need to work out a better
upgrade for 3.20 from an earlier version, as I've experienced a
few issues. But absolutely won't destroy your host from a
container.

It (SBBS) absolutely won't destroy your host in any scenario.

https://github.com/bbs-io/sychronet-docker

Also should try a recent nightly to see if it initializes okay
still. It's not the cleanest usage, but I prefer to keep nearly everything I use containerized with a docker-compose file to go
with it. Far easier backup/restore/migrate... etc.

I've never really seen the point of docker. Seems like a lot of extra
work for..... what? Security? I'm on a home LAN and am not worried
about that. As for backups etc... not sure how it could really be
easier than an automated rsync (or similar) every night, to both a LAN
device, and an off-location device. But anyway.... <SHRUG>.



... Enter any 12-digit prime number to continue.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: Gamgee to Tracker1 on Mon Apr 17 2023 08:07 pm

I've never really seen the point of docker. Seems like a lot of extra
work for..... what? Security? I'm on a home LAN and am not worried
about that. As for backups etc... not sure how it could really be
easier than an automated rsync (or similar) every night, to both a LAN device, and an off-location device. But anyway.... <SHRUG>.

I am not a docker advocate, but now we are at it:

The advantage of docker is that a developer may create and test an application in a
given environment (with a set of libraries, databases and support components) and then
serve it to a use without caring too much about which environment the user is running
(since the user will run it as if it were a capsule).

Docker images are also stateless, which means you can create and destroy them on
demand if you are running somehting which is very heavy load. For example, if you are
running a heavy game service, you may use an orchestator to launch instances of the
game service on demand according to the number of players you are getting, and then
use a load balancer to spread the load across the nodes. If you have a spike of users,
you auto-deploy game nodes. If users become few, you auto-reduce the number of nodes.


Docker does not help that much with backups in that scenario because docker instances
are supposed to be stateless. You typically have a storage backend for managing persistent data.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

Arelor wrote to Gamgee <=-

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: Gamgee to Tracker1 on Mon Apr 17 2023 08:07 pm

I've never really seen the point of docker. Seems like a lot of extra
work for..... what? Security? I'm on a home LAN and am not worried
about that. As for backups etc... not sure how it could really be
easier than an automated rsync (or similar) every night, to both a LAN device, and an off-location device. But anyway.... <SHRUG>.

I am not a docker advocate, but now we are at it:

The advantage of docker is that a developer may create and test
an application in a given environment (with a set of libraries,
databases and support components) and thenserve it to a use
without caring too much about which environment the user is
running (since the user will run it as if it were a capsule).

Docker images are also stateless, which means you can create and
destroy them on demand if you are running somehting which is very
heavy load. For example, if you are running a heavy game service,
you may use an orchestator to launch instances of the game
service on demand according to the number of players you are
getting, and then use a load balancer to spread the load across
the nodes. If you have a spike of users,you auto-deploy game
nodes. If users become few, you auto-reduce the number of nodes.

Docker does not help that much with backups in that scenario
because docker instances are supposed to be stateless. You
typically have a storage backend for managing persistent data.

Excellent explanation, thank you; and that actually makes good
sense..... if you're a developer. Perhaps I should have added that to
my statement above about it not making sense (for a "normal" user).



... All the easy problems have been solved.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

Ogg wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

To remove, or select specific pages from a specific PDF file, I
just switch to a PDF "printer" such as CutePDF. Then, my OSes
own printer's inteface offers to select specific pages. The
end result is another PDF with the pages I want.

Simple, doesn't require any additional software. Love it.




... Imagine the music as a set of disconnected events
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

Hello poindexter FORTRAN!

Simple, doesn't require any additional software. Love it.

Technically, CutePDF is one piece of additional software (a
printer driver that only prints to PDF format). But it's also
handy when you want to share one's own created documents (such
as invoices) but don't want to send the editable wordprocessing
version.


--- OpenXP 5.0.57
* Origin: (} Pointy McPointFace (21:4/106.21)

Re: PDF Files
By: Ogg to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue Apr 18 2023 10:11 pm

Technically, CutePDF is one piece of additional software (a
printer driver that only prints to PDF format). But it's also
handy when you want to share one's own created documents (such
as invoices) but don't want to send the editable wordprocessing
version.

I used to use CutePDF years ago, but now it seems Microsoft has added that as a standard feature in Windows (perhaps in Windows 10?). One of my printer devices is "Microsoft Print to PDF". Also, the web browser I use these days (Vivaldi) has a print destination of "Save as PDF". Microsoft Word can also save to PDF format these days.

Nightfox

Ogg wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

Hello poindexter FORTRAN!

Simple, doesn't require any additional software. Love it.

Technically, CutePDF is one piece of additional software (a
printer driver that only prints to PDF format). But it's also
handy when you want to share one's own created documents (such
as invoices) but don't want to send the editable wordprocessing
version.

I don't know if it's Windows 10 or Office, but one of them came with a
print to PDF option that I use.

(Aside: I'm going to be taking over my mom's bills and spent the morning cleaning and maintaining my 15 year-old old Samsung laser printer. I
needed to clean the roller that feeds paper from the tray, as it was
pulling double sheets and jamming.

I feel like printers are something that have gotten worse over the
years, so I'm interested in keeping this thing going. PCL support, cheap toners, only 8000 pages on the engine.)



... Do the last thing first
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

Hello Nightfox!

** On Tuesday 18.04.23 - 21:51, Nightfox wrote to Ogg:

I used to use CutePDF years ago, but now it seems Microsoft has added that as a standard feature in Windows (perhaps in Windows 10?). One of my printer devices is "Microsoft Print to PDF". Also, the web browser I use these days (Vivaldi) has a print destination of "Save as PDF". Microsoft Word can also save to PDF format these days.

True. My Word 2007 seems to have output to PDF option. But
those apps were no good of you already had a PDF and just
wanted to build a new PDF file out of an existing one.

I do recall that I needed CutePDF inorder to downscale some
existing PDFs without having to actually print them on paper.


--- OpenXP 5.0.57
* Origin: (} Pointy McPointFace (21:4/106.21)

Hello pF!

(Aside: I'm going to be taking over my mom's bills and
spent the morning cleaning and maintaining my 15 year-old
old Samsung laser printer. I needed to clean the roller
that feeds paper from the tray, as it was pulling double
sheets and jamming.

I feel like printers are something that have gotten worse
over the years, so I'm interested in keeping this thing
going. PCL support, cheap toners, only 8000 pages on the
engine.)

I have a fine HP CP2025d from about 14 years ago. The genuine
OEM toners are not too cheap at about $180 each, or $500 for a
3-colour set. But I get over a year per cartridge. The black
might get used up sooner though.

I tried a set of the "compatibles" one time and they gunked up
the mechanism really bad. So, I'm not ever going back to
those.

A couple of plastic hinge-things are broken, but it doesn't
seem to impede the printing function.

My HP sits on a floor shelf under a counter. I haven't really
cleaned the dust around it for years.

--- OpenXP 5.0.57
* Origin: fsxnet/2 (21:3/110.10)

Am 18.04.23 schrieb Gamgee@21:2/138 in FSX_GEN:

Hallo Gamgee,

[Docker]

Excellent explanation, thank you; and that actually makes good
sense..... if you're a developer. Perhaps I should have added that to
my statement above about it not making sense (for a "normal" user).

I just have to add that although Docker (and other similar container
systems) is good for developing software, it might not be the best
idea for serving applications "in production".
At least from the standpoint of a systems administrator...

My reason is:
When using "normal" distributions (like Debian/Devuan), all
dependencies are managed by the distributions' package management
system and thus get updated in a central way.

But with containers, you have to rely on the base containers to be on
the latest version (or: on the version without security problems) and
(as sometimes also the container with the application also contains libraries) also the application container.

Regards,
Anna

--- OpenXP 5.0.57
* Origin: Imzadi Box Point (21:3/127.1)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: Gamgee to Arelor on Tue Apr 18 2023 01:32 pm

Docker does not help that much with backups in that scenario
because docker instances are supposed to be stateless. You
typically have a storage backend for managing persistent data.

Excellent explanation, thank you; and that actually makes good
sense..... if you're a developer. Perhaps I should have added that to
my statement above about it not making sense (for a "normal" user).

I guess if you are a regular user, docker makes less sense. There are lots of desktop specific systems for distributing software in an encapsulated format (snap, flatpak, AppImage) which are better tailored for desktops. Still I am not a fan of them.

I like the OpenBSD approach better. Install everything via ports/packages. If a program needs sandboxing, it can request it itself via the pledge() and unveil() systemcalls.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

Re: Re: PDF Files
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Ogg on Wed Apr 19 2023 08:13 am

I feel like printers are something that have gotten worse over the
years, so I'm interested in keeping this thing going. PCL support, cheap toners, only 8000 pages on the engine.)

I was talking about this with an ex-dev for printer drivers. His answer was: "If you try to take your time to write a good driver the boss will break in yelling development delay is unacceptable, so in the end you write something quick that barely works and go have lunch. I don t get paid enough to take this shit."

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

Ogg wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

I have a fine HP CP2025d from about 14 years ago. The genuine
OEM toners are not too cheap at about $180 each, or $500 for a
3-colour set. But I get over a year per cartridge. The black
might get used up sooner though.

Ouch!

I have a nice color inkjet MFP that I use for scan to PDF color paper
and photo printing, and just use the laser for black and white and large
jobs. Toners are around $18, OEM, good for around 1200 pages.

The inkjet was free on the side of the road, a paper jam caused by a highlighter rolling into the exit feed area. What I love about it is the
cheap ink - a set of color tanks (3 colors, one pigment black and one
document black) are around $12 on Amazon, so I don't have to sweat using
the printer like I did when I had a 2 tank inkjet at $50 a pop.




... ZIMA TASTES BETTER WHEN IT'S ILLEGAL
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

acn wrote to Gamgee <=-

[Docker]

Excellent explanation, thank you; and that actually makes good
sense..... if you're a developer. Perhaps I should have added that to
my statement above about it not making sense (for a "normal" user).

I just have to add that although Docker (and other similar
container systems) is good for developing software, it might not
be the best idea for serving applications "in production".
At least from the standpoint of a systems administrator...

My reason is:
When using "normal" distributions (like Debian/Devuan), all
dependencies are managed by the distributions' package management
system and thus get updated in a central way.

But with containers, you have to rely on the base containers to
be on the latest version (or: on the version without security
problems) and (as sometimes also the container with the
application also contains libraries) also the application
container.

Great points, which add emphasis to not being real useful (or worth the effort) for non-developer folks. At least that's how I see it.



... If it's not on fire, it's a software problem.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

Arelor wrote to Gamgee <=-

Docker does not help that much with backups in that scenario
because docker instances are supposed to be stateless. You
typically have a storage backend for managing persistent data.

Excellent explanation, thank you; and that actually makes good
sense..... if you're a developer. Perhaps I should have added that to
my statement above about it not making sense (for a "normal" user).

I guess if you are a regular user, docker makes less sense. There

It certainly seems that way to me, as a regular user.

are lots of desktop specific systems for distributing software in
an encapsulated format (snap, flatpak, AppImage) which are better
tailored for desktops. Still I am not a fan of them.

I'll admit to knowing about as much about those as I do with Docker
(very little). More things that I've not felt the need to use, for
whatever reason. Maybe the reason is "Slackware". ;-)

I like the OpenBSD approach better. Install everything via
ports/packages. If aprogram needs sandboxing, it can request it
itself via the pledge() and unveil() systemcalls.

I've told myself for years that I should learn one (or more) of the
BSD's, but have never gotten around to it. Maybe I'll bump that up on
my TODO list a little. Would you recommend trying OpenBSD first, or
FreeBSD? Related question - once you "know" one of them, is the other
one easy/similar?



... She sells unix shells by the sea shore.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

highlighter rolling into the exit feed area. What I love about it is the cheap ink - a set of color tanks (3 colors, one pigment black and one document black) are around $12 on Amazon, so I don't have to sweat using the printer like I did when I had a 2 tank inkjet at $50 a pop.

That _does_ seem fairly reasonable.

I went away from ink jets once I realized that my, "print something every month or two" habit led to dried out cartridges and "buy new ink every month or two".

Any idea if ink jets got better on that?

I'm plausibly in the market for a printer, but I print so rarely that I tend to find other options. And I'd get a laser printer, but that it's somewhat hard to justify the space, currently. And then I'd have to figure out which one to get.

Reminds me that I probably do have a greater need for a document scanner, as that helps me get rid of the various paper messes I have.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

Hello Adept!

I'm plausibly in the market for a printer, but I print so
rarely that I tend to find other options. And I'd get a
laser printer, but that it's somewhat hard to justify the
space, currently. And then I'd have to figure out which one
to get.

I also have a LaserJet P1005. It roughly occupies only
14"x8"x8" space. I've had it for over 15 years.

https://support.hp.com/ca-en/document/c01174957

I think it was introduced in 2007. Still works great. I print
with it sparingly, and I've only ever replaced the cartridge 3
times.

Reminds me that I probably do have a greater need for a
document scanner, as that helps me get rid of the various
paper messes I have.

There are laser/scanner combos, but then I think you end up
having to buy a colour printer - and the whole thing is much
larger.


--- OpenXP 5.0.57
* Origin: (} Pointy McPointFace (21:4/106.21)

I went away from ink jets once I realized that my, "print something
every month or two" habit led to dried out cartridges and "buy new ink
every month or two".
Any idea if ink jets got better on that?

I have an Epson 'Ecotank' and the issue with 'printing every month or
two'now isn't that the tanks dry out, it's that you have to do a pretty rigorous head cleaning to get it to print correctly after disuse, and that
head cleaning uses a lot of ink. The solution that I have come up with is to print a colorful 'test page' every few weeks to keep things running smoothly.

---
* Origin: WalledCTTY (21:2/145)

On 20 Apr 2023 at 08:16p, Gamgee pondered and said...

Arelor wrote to Gamgee <=-

I like the OpenBSD approach better. Install everything via ports/packages. If aprogram needs sandboxing, it can request it itself via the pledge() and unveil() systemcalls.

I've told myself for years that I should learn one (or more) of the BSD's, but have never gotten around to it. Maybe I'll bump that up on
my TODO list a little. Would you recommend trying OpenBSD first, or FreeBSD? Related question - once you "know" one of them, is the other one easy/similar?

I think it depends very much on what you want to do with
the system. OpenBSD is a lot closer to the "old school"
BSD experience, a la 4.3 or SunOS 4. It makes a reasonable
server or firewall. But if you're used to a more canned
experience, it may be frustrating out of the box (in that
sense, it's probably closer to, say, Arch Linux than to
Mint). Software in ports on OpenBSD tends to lag behind
released versions by a good bit.

On the other hand, FreeBSD also makes a fine server, but
tends more toward the modern than OpenBSD; it's not too
terribly hard to set it up as a workstation, I suspect.

I've run both for many years; on edge devices and things
exposed to the Internet I tend to run OpenBSD. I run a
FreeBSD server for kicks. I use neither as a workstation
anymore.

So...what do you want to do with it?

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

Adept wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

I went away from ink jets once I realized that my, "print something
every month or two" habit led to dried out cartridges and "buy new ink every month or two".

Any idea if ink jets got better on that?

I do most of my printing on my laser, and use the inkjet only
occasionally. I don't run into issues where I find myself out of
ink after not using it. I wonder if the reason is it's one of those
printers that has separate tanks for each color (and *two* black tanks,
one for pictures and one for prints).

The other nice thing is that you can replace tanks one by one. On more
than one occasion I've run out of one color and been able to replace
that one tank instead of throwing out an otherwise full tank.

I'm plausibly in the market for a printer, but I print so rarely that I tend to find other options. And I'd get a laser printer, but that it's somewhat hard to justify the space, currently. And then I'd have to
figure out which one to get.

Reminds me that I probably do have a greater need for a document
scanner, as that helps me get rid of the various paper messes I have.

I went through a divorce, and a cheap Canon inkjet MFP with a document
feeder saved me from keeping and dealing with reams of paperwork.

At the same time, I changed my job from working at a single site to
managing several sites. I got rid of my desk, started hoteling, and
scanned all of my paperwork to PDFs so I could take it along with me.
Once you get in the habit, it's nice having everything oline and
searchable.





... What's behind this door? What door?
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

Gamgee wrote to Arelor <=-

I've told myself for years that I should learn one (or more) of the
BSD's, but have never gotten around to it. Maybe I'll bump that up on
my TODO list a little. Would you recommend trying OpenBSD first, or FreeBSD? Related question - once you "know" one of them, is the other
one easy/similar?

I'd start with FreeBSD first, then work your way to NetBSD if you want
wider hardware support and OpenBSD if you want to DIY.

My admittedly 50,000 foot take on the current state of BSD is that
FreeBSD and derivatives remind me of the convenience of
Debian/Ubuntu/Mint, whereas NetBSD and OpenBSD are reminiscent of Arch
and Slackware Linux, where you can tweak the system exactly how you like
at the trade-off of more manual configuration being needed.

I'm no BSD slouch, but haven't done more than play with it in 20-someodd
years. I started running SunOS on old Sun hardware and BSD/OS on Intel
back in the '90s, and ran a couple of high-traffic sites on BSDs.

Personally, I'd love to find some old obscure hardware that NetBSD
supports and run it on my desktop. Fire up Mutt and Lynx and ditch the
web for a while. I'm more of a text guy by nature.

As for what platforms are supported by NetBSD, see below. This is in
addition to the standard Sparc64, AMD64, x86, and assorted mainstream architectures.

Port CPU Machines
acorn32 arm Acorn RiscPC/A7000/NC and compatibles
algor mips Algorithmics MIPS evaluation boards
alpha alpha Digital Alpha (64-bit)
amiga m68k Commodore Amiga, MacroSystem DraCo
amigappc powerpc PowerPC-based Amiga boards
arc mips Machines following the Advanced RISC Computing spec
atari m68k Atari TT030, Falcon, Hades
bebox powerpc Be Inc's BeBox
cats arm Chalice Technology's Strong Arm evaluation board
cesfic m68k CES's FIC8234 VME processor board
cobalt mips Cobalt Networks' Microservers
dreamcast sh3 Sega Dreamcast game console
epoc32 arm 32bit PSION EPOC PDA
emips mips Machines based on "Extensible MIPS"
evbsh3 sh3 Evaluation boards with Renesas (Hitachi) Super-H SH3 and
SH4 CPUs
ews4800mips mips NEC's MIPS based EWS4800 workstations
hp300 m68k Hewlett-Packard 9000/300 and 400 series
hppa hppa Hewlett-Packard 9000/700 series
hpcmips mips MIPS based Windows CE PDA machines
hpcsh sh3 Renesas (Hitachi) SH3 and SH4 based Windows CE PDA
machines
ia64 itanium Itanium family of processors none
ibmnws powerpc IBM Network Station Series 1000
iyonix arm Iyonix ARM pc
landisk sh3 SH4 based NAS appliances by I-O DATA
luna68k m68k OMRON Tateisi Electronics' LUNA series
mac68k m68k Apple Macintosh
macppc powerpc Apple Power Macintosh and clones
mipsco mips Mips family of workstations and servers
mmeye sh3 Brains' mmEye Multi Media Server
mvme68k m68k Motorola MVME 68k SBCs
mvmeppc powerpc Motorola MVME PowerPC SBCs
netwinder arm StrongARM based NetWinder machines
news68k m68k Sony's m68k based "NET WORK STATION" series
newsmips mips Sony's MIPS based "NET WORK STATION" series
next68k m68k NeXT 68k 'black' hardware
ofppc powerpc Generic OpenFirmware compliant PowerPC machines
pmax mips Digital MIPS-based DECstations and DECsystems
prep powerpc PReP (PowerPC Reference Platform) and CHRP machines
riscv riscv RISC-V none
rs6000 powerpc MCA-based IBM RS/6000 workstations
sandpoint powerpc Motorola Sandpoint reference platform
sbmips mips Broadcom SiByte evaluation boards
sgimips mips Silicon Graphics' MIPS-based workstations
shark arm Digital DNARD ("shark")
sparc sparc Sun SPARC (32-bit)
sun2 m68k Sun 2
sun3 m68k Sun 3 and 3x
vax vax Digital VAX
x68k m68k Sharp X680x0 series
zaurus arm Sharp C7x0/C860/C1000/C3x00 series PDA




... YORGAMAK HAS ARRIVED AND WILL INITIATE DESTRUCTIMATION.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

tenser wrote to Gamgee <=-

I've told myself for years that I should learn one (or more) of the
BSD's, but have never gotten around to it. Maybe I'll bump that up on
my TODO list a little. Would you recommend trying OpenBSD first, or FreeBSD? Related question - once you "know" one of them, is the other
one easy/similar?

I think it depends very much on what you want to do with
the system. OpenBSD is a lot closer to the "old school"
BSD experience, a la 4.3 or SunOS 4. It makes a reasonable
server or firewall. But if you're used to a more canned
experience, it may be frustrating out of the box (in that
sense, it's probably closer to, say, Arch Linux than to
Mint). Software in ports on OpenBSD tends to lag behind
released versions by a good bit.

On the other hand, FreeBSD also makes a fine server, but
tends more toward the modern than OpenBSD; it's not too
terribly hard to set it up as a workstation, I suspect.

I've run both for many years; on edge devices and things
exposed to the Internet I tend to run OpenBSD. I run a
FreeBSD server for kicks. I use neither as a workstation
anymore.

So...what do you want to do with it?

Thank you for that excellent description of the differences. At this
point I don't really have anything in mind regarding what to do with
it... other than just getting it running and becoming familiar with it. Perhaps a "homelab server" which would be not much more than a file
storage repository. I currently use Slackware Linux pretty much
exclusively, other than a couple of RPi's running Raspbian. Mostly this
would be a learning/experiment/for-fun thing. Thanks again for the
info.



... Want to meet new people? Pick up the wrong golf ball.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Gamgee <=-

I've told myself for years that I should learn one (or more) of the
BSD's, but have never gotten around to it. Maybe I'll bump that up on
my TODO list a little. Would you recommend trying OpenBSD first, or FreeBSD? Related question - once you "know" one of them, is the other
one easy/similar?

I'd start with FreeBSD first, then work your way to NetBSD if you
want wider hardware support and OpenBSD if you want to DIY.

My admittedly 50,000 foot take on the current state of BSD is
that FreeBSD and derivatives remind me of the convenience of Debian/Ubuntu/Mint, whereas NetBSD and OpenBSD are reminiscent of
Arch and Slackware Linux, where you can tweak the system exactly
how you like at the trade-off of more manual configuration being
needed.

Okay, thanks for that info, it's quite helpful. I use mostly Slackware
Linux now, so those analogies make some sense to me.

<SNIP>

As for what platforms are supported by NetBSD, see below. This is
in addition to the standard Sparc64, AMD64, x86, and assorted
mainstream architectures.

<SNIP>

Wow, quite an impressive list of supported architectures! I'd probably
only be trying it on x86 stuff. Appreciate the reply!



... Then, suddenly and embarrassingly, my swash came unbuckled.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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On 21 Apr 2023 at 11:07a, Gamgee pondered and said...

Thank you for that excellent description of the differences. At this point I don't really have anything in mind regarding what to do with it... other than just getting it running and becoming familiar with it. Perhaps a "homelab server" which would be not much more than a file storage repository. I currently use Slackware Linux pretty much exclusively, other than a couple of RPi's running Raspbian. Mostly this would be a learning/experiment/for-fun thing. Thanks again for the
info.

I think I'd probably start with FreeBSD and then give OpenBSD
a whirl if the fancy strikes you.

At the end of the day, both are kind of Just Another Unix, so
either will be pretty familiar.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

I have a fine HP CP2025d from about 14 years ago. The genuine
OEM toners are not too cheap at about $180 each, or $500 for a
3-colour set. But I get over a year per cartridge. The black
might get used up sooner though.

Ouch!

That's CDN dollars, btw.


--- OpenXP 5.0.57
* Origin: (} Pointy McPointFace (21:4/106.21)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: Gamgee to Arelor on Thu Apr 20 2023 08:16 pm

I like the OpenBSD approach better. Install everything via ports/packages. If aprogram needs sandboxing, it can request it
itself via the pledge() and unveil() systemcalls.

I've told myself for years that I should learn one (or more) of the
BSD's, but have never gotten around to it. Maybe I'll bump that up on
my TODO list a little. Would you recommend trying OpenBSD first, or FreeBSD? Related question - once you "know" one of them, is the other
one easy/similar?

Slackware is very BSDish, so any of the three big BSD should be easy to pick up.

Each mayor BSD is a different Operating System and they are not that similar. They are pretty much the same on the surface - the classical Linux utilities like tar, awk, sed etc. have their BSD counterparts, but then kernel capabilities and OS administration differ. Firewall utilities are different. Package management is different. MAC/sandboxing (for the BSD that support such things) are different. If you are used to a BSD and suddenly need to administrate another, the differences won't shock you but you will totally have to relearn some of the tools.

As for which BSD to try first, it depends on what you want. OpenBSD is developed by IT nerds for their own use, and non-devs get to enjoy the ride if it happens to suit their needs. What this means is OpenBSD has very clean implementations for the things it does but it lacks some features you'd take for granted everywhere else because the devs don't give a damn. ie. if the devs don't like blutooth as a protocol then you will never ever use your blutooth speakers on OpenBSD. In exchange, you get a very tightly developped set of userland utilities.

OpenBSD is the OS I would pick for a small home server, because OpenBSD maintains its own http daemon with very tight privilege separation and sandboxing. They also develop their own SMTPD in-house and same advantages apply. Firewalling is also developped in-house. OpenBSD's utilities and services have just enough features to serve medium sized deployments while featuring non-bullshit configuration processes - administration is very Slackware-like.

FreeBSD is more of a corporate product so the kernel has more features and it is a bit more Linux compatible. You may expect better performance, a modern filesystem with COW support, and better vendor support. FreeBSD is not as tight when it comes to default process isolation and their MAC framework requires some work to understand (think SELinux).

I personally use OpenBSD mostly everywhere because its system layout feels more sane, but that means that I often need some feature that is not supported and end up having to build it in myself. FreeBSD is more likely to support a random feature or a given package you may one day discover you need.

NetBSD deserves special metion because it is developped very aggressively but to a fine quality standard. Dragonfly is a small project but it is known for their HAMMER filesystem and its advanced multithreading. I have never used Dragon and my experience with Net is not meaningful.

Which to pick for testing is a matter of choice. FreeBSD feels much more production ready. OpenBSD feels like the product of a bunch of hardcore Unix advocates building the sort of modern Unix-like they want to run at home.

The fun part with OpenSource is exploring the options, I guess XD



--
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* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Gamgee on Fri Apr 21 2023 08:02 am

Debian/Ubuntu/Mint, whereas NetBSD and OpenBSD are reminiscent of Arch
and Slackware Linux, where you can tweak the system exactly how you like
at the trade-off of more manual configuration being needed.

I don't know about NetBSD, but one of OpenBSD's objectives is to have defaults good enough that no tweaking is necessary at a low level. Which means they strive to have services you can install and forget. For example, the default httpd launches chrooted and with privilege separation and sandboxing enabled by default, and the only thing you are expected to do is to configure your domains and TLS certs and such. You can break out of the defaults if needed, but if you have to do it is considered a bit of a failure on their part.

--
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--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

BY: Thom Miller (21:2/145)

|11TM|09> |10I have an Epson 'Ecotank' and the issue with 'printing every month or|07
|11TM|09> |10two'now isn't that the tanks dry out, it's that you have to do a pretty|07
|11TM|09> |10rigorous head cleaning to get it to print correctly after disuse, and|07
|11TM|09> |10that|07
|11TM|09> |10head cleaning uses a lot of ink. The solution that I have come up with|07
Ecotank is fustrating me. Im thinking about eating up my ink bottles and just giving up on the machine.


--- WWIV 5.8.0.3681[Windows]
* Origin: inland utopia * california * iutopia.duckdns.org:2023 (21:4/108)

Ecotank is fustrating me. Im thinking about eating
up my ink bottles and just giving up on the machine.

We really haven't had that many problems with ours, once I figured out that I need to just print something every few weeks to keep it happy. We also picked up some cheap (read: non-EPSON) bottles of ink off Amazon, which work well
with it and reduce the cost.

---
* Origin: WalledCTTY (21:2/145)

Reminds me that I probably do have a greater need for a
document scanner, as that helps me get rid of the various
paper messes I have.

There are laser/scanner combos, but then I think you end up
having to buy a colour printer - and the whole thing is much
larger.

Yeah, and what I want is a document scanner, and the laser/scanner combos tend to be flatbed scanners.

Which are probably better quality, but I want to be able to get through a pile of documents quickly, because that's the only way it's getting done.

Thanks for the printer recommendation, regardless. I had previously used a Brother laser printer, and liked it. But I suppose the open question is what's good quality _now_ for printers, rather than who made good printers 15+ years ago.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

BY: Abbub (21:2/145)

|11A|09> |10We really haven't had that many problems with ours, once I figured out|07
|11A|09> |10that I|07
|11A|09> |10need to just print something every few weeks to keep it happy. We also|07
|11A|09> |10picked|07
|11A|09> |10up some cheap (read: non-EPSON) bottles of ink off Amazon, which work|07
|11A|09> |10well with it and reduce the cost.|07
And I should not have to Power Clean it quarterly for it to work well.


--- WWIV 5.8.0.3681[Windows]
* Origin: inland utopia * california * iutopia.duckdns.org:2023 (21:4/108)

Arelor wrote to Gamgee <=-

I've told myself for years that I should learn one (or more) of the
BSD's, but have never gotten around to it. Maybe I'll bump that up on
my TODO list a little. Would you recommend trying OpenBSD first, or FreeBSD? Related question - once you "know" one of them, is the other
one easy/similar?

Slackware is very BSDish, so any of the three big BSD should be
easy to pick up.

Each mayor BSD is a different Operating System and they are not
that similar. They are pretty much the same on the surface - the
classical Linux utilities like tar, awk, sed etc. have their BSD counterparts, but then kernel capabilities and OS administration
differ. Firewall utilities are different. Package management is
different. MAC/sandboxing (for the BSD that support such things)
are different. If you are used to a BSD and suddenly need to
administrate another, the differences won't shock you but you
will totally haveto relearn some of the tools.

As for which BSD to try first, it depends on what you want.
OpenBSD is developed by IT nerds for their own use, and non-devs
get to enjoy the ride if it happens to suit their needs. What
this means is OpenBSD has very clean implementations for the
things it does but it lacks some features you'd take for granted everywhere else because the devs don't give a damn. ie. if the
devsdon't like blutooth as a protocol then you will never ever
use your blutooth speakers on OpenBSD. In exchange, you get a
very tightly developped set of userland utilities.

OpenBSD is the OS I would pick for a small home server, because
OpenBSD maintains its own http daemon with very tight privilege
separation and sandboxing. They also develop their own SMTPD
in-house and same advantages apply. Firewalling is also
developped in-house. OpenBSD's utilities and services have just
enough features to serve medium sized deployments while featuring non-bullshit configuration processes - administration is very Slackware-like.

FreeBSD is more of a corporate product so the kernel has more
features and it is a bit more Linux compatible. You may expect
better performance, a modern filesystem with COW support, and
better vendor support. FreeBSD is not as tightwhen it comes to
default process isolation and their MAC framework requires some
work to understand (think SELinux).

I personally use OpenBSD mostly everywhere because its system
layout feels moresane, but that means that I often need some
feature that is not supported and end up having to build it in
myself. FreeBSD is more likely to support a randomfeature or a
given package you may one day discover you need.

NetBSD deserves special metion because it is developped very
aggressively but to a fine quality standard. Dragonfly is a small
project but it is known for their HAMMER filesystem and its
advanced multithreading. I have never used Dragon and my
experience with Net is not meaningful.

Which to pick for testing is a matter of choice. FreeBSD feels
much more production ready. OpenBSD feels like the product of a
bunch of hardcore Unix advocates building the sort of modern
Unix-like they want to run at home.

The fun part with OpenSource is exploring the options, I guess XD

Fantastic information and comparison. Thanks for taking the time for
such a long and detailed reply, I appreciate it!

I think my first dip in the BSD waters will be with Free...



... If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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I would suggest FreeBSD. OpenBSD is nice, but I prefer the original. I am considering moving the WHQ BBS to FreeBSD, but I would have to enable
compiling on that platform. Right now, I just compile Linux/64 while developing.

-Nugax (cbbs)


--- CyberBBS v1.0.11 2023/04/12 [Debian Linux/x64]
* Origin: CyberBBS WHQ BBS | Telnet: whq.cyberbbs.dev:6023 (21:1/167)

nugax wrote to Gamgee <=-

I would suggest FreeBSD. OpenBSD is nice, but I prefer the
original. I am considering moving the WHQ BBS to FreeBSD, but I
would have to enable compiling on that platform. Right now, I
just compile Linux/64 while developing.

Thanks, I'm likely going to go that route (FreeBSD).



... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (P)anic
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On 22 Apr 2023 at 07:23a, Arelor pondered and said...

[snip]
They are pretty much the same on the surface - the classical
Linux utilities like tar, awk, sed etc. have their BSD counterparts, but then kernel capabilities and OS administration differ. Firewall

Ooophf; point of order: those aren't classical "Linux" utilities,
they're classical _Unix_ utilities. Most Linux distros get the
userland tools from GNU, whereas BSD inherited them from Unix and
each project maintains its own userspace.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

Well, there have been over 17k pulls of the docker image(s)

Wow. that's impressive number. Is there a stat how many active synchronet BBS instances are up and running these days?

-h1

... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)

Re: RE: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: nugax to Gamgee on Sun Apr 23 2023 06:53 am

I would suggest FreeBSD. OpenBSD is nice, but I prefer the original. I am considering moving the WHQ BBS to FreeBSD, but I would have to enable compiling on that platform. Right now, I just compile Linux/64 while developing.

-Nugax (cbbs)

--- CyberBBS v1.0.11 2023/04/12 [Debian Linux/x64]
* Origin: CyberBBS WHQ BBS | Telnet: whq.cyberbbs.dev:6023 (21:1/167)

Afaik FreeBSD is not the original.

NetBSD has an initial release date set at 19 April 1993, whereas Freebsd has it on 1 November 1993.

NetBSD was derived from 386BSD just the same as FreeBSD. OpenBSD is a fork of NetBSD. If anything, the o"original" the big *BSDs are branched from is 386BSD.

More info in this diagram:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/Unix_history-simple.s vg/1962px-Unix_history-simple.svg.png

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Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: tenser to Arelor on Mon Apr 24 2023 07:23 am

Ooophf; point of order: those aren't classical "Linux" utilities,
they're classical _Unix_ utilities. Most Linux distros get the
userland tools from GNU, whereas BSD inherited them from Unix and
each project maintains its own userspace.

I think I have expressed myself quite badly there. What I meant is that core utilities Linux users take for granted have their BSD versions (and if you check the source code, often predate Linux by a mile).


--
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On 23 Apr 2023 at 06:05p, Arelor pondered and said...

Afaik FreeBSD is not the original.

NetBSD has an initial release date set at 19 April 1993, whereas Freebsd has it on 1 November 1993.

NetBSD was derived from 386BSD just the same as FreeBSD. OpenBSD is a
fork of NetBSD. If anything, the o"original" the big *BSDs are branched from is 386BSD.

This is correct: Bill and Lynne Jolitz ported the "Net/2"
distribution of BSD from UC Berkeley to the 386, famously
writing a series of articles about it in Dr Dobbs Journal;
the series was later collected into a book. The result was
386BSD.

However, the Jolitz's were a bit, um, "challenging" to deal
with and progress on, say, necessary bug fixes, supporting
new hardware, etc, was all slow, and unofficial patchsets
were floating around on the net. Eventually, these were
collected and distributed as part of NetBSD. FreeBSD was
an independent effort along the same lines.

Of the two, FreeBSD concentrated on excellent support for
the PC platform, while NetBSD was more concerned about
portability; for a while in the 90s, if you had a reasonable
computer of almost any description, it was likely there was
a NetBSD port for it.


OpenBSD was a fork of NetBSD, created after Theo de Raadt
was kicked off the NetBSD core team and his access to the
NetBSD source repository suspended. The details there
are not terribly interesting; suffice it to say that he
has a tendency to behave badly. OpenBSD claims to favor
security and correctness over all else, but honestly, I'm
not really sure that's _actually_ true, but that's their
main selling point.

Dragonfly is the other main BSD fork; it derives from
FreeBSD. Matt Dillon, the principle author, forked it from
the FreeBSD 4.x series, as he disagreed with the direction
they wanted to take for SMP implementation in FreeBSD 5 and
beyond: all of the BSDs were original single-processor only
(indeed, same with Unix; multiprocessor systems were not
terribly common in the era it was written and on the types
of computers it was written for: minicomputers). As time
moved all, all of them realized that multicore was going to
be a critical, particularly with the end of Denard scaling,
so set out to modify their systems to support SMP (symmetric
multiprocessing). Suffice it to say that retrofitting that
onto an existing operating system that wasn't designed to
support it from the start is challenging; lots of code was
written making lots of assumptions about things that it
presumes can't happen when there's only one CPU, but that
very much can, and do, happen when there are multiple.

Anyway, there are several ways to do this, and in particular
to expose it to userspace programs. The most common is a
1:1 thread model, where a single user-space thread corresponds
to a single thread of execution in the operating system kernel.
This is far and away the most common. The second most common
is to use what are called "Green Threads", or N:1, in which many
userspace threads are multiplexed onto a single kernel thread;
the problem with this is that, if a user-thread initiates some
blocking operation (say, opening a file), this blocks all
threads. Finally, the least common is N:M, where N userspace
threads are muxed onto M kernel threads, and M != N, usually.
This was a hot area of research in the late 90s, and this is
what FreeBSD tried to do in FreeBSD 5. Dillon thought this was
too complex and would yield poor performance, and so forked
DragonFly to explore a different model. He has since pivoted
to working on advanced filesystems, with HAMMER and now HAMMER2.

Incidentally, he was right: after a long struggle, the FreeBSD
people _did_ implement their N:M threading model, but it wasn't
a good match for real-world applications, and was very complex.
Eventually, they deprecated it and went with the 1:1 model. I
suspect some support is still in there, but practically no one
uses it.

As noted, all of these descend from the original BSD work
done at UC Berkeley, which had a long history of Unix
involvement, starting with the 5th Research Edition in
1974. Ken Thompson had gone to Berkeley, and took a Unix
tape with him when he went on sabbatical there in '74.
This, all of the modern BSDs descend from Net/2.

Net/2 was interesting: it was an _almost_ complete Unix
distribution, just with some small proprietary parts removed.
This was the culmination of a large body of work spearheaded
by Keith Bostic, to create a freely available BSD under a
permissive license. It was very close in interface and
usage to the final 4.4 releases, which in turn, were mostly
POSIX compatible; the various 4.3 and earlier releases were
not. A company spun out of Berkeley, BSDi, around the time
of that release to market a commercial version of BSD called
"BSD/OS". Famously, their phone number was "1-800-ITS-UNIX".
This led to a lawsuit where AT&T sued both BSDi and UC
Berkeley, and Berkeley counter-sued AT&T, over copyright and
trade secret infringement: AT&T had been legally barred from
competing in the computer industry as long as they held their
regulated monopoly status over the telephone system. However,
shortly before all this went down they'd split themselves
up and thus been released from the consent decree that so
barred them: they intended to enter the industry marketing
Unix (they did, but were largely unsuccessful). This lead to
a period of FUD over the future of BSD-derived systems, which
gave the new Linux upstart a chance to get a foothold in the
industry.

Linux, on the other hand, was a complete reimplementation
from scratch. Linus Torvalds wanted something that took
better advantage of his hardware than Minix, the teaching
system by Andy Tannenbaum that he had been running. Linux
took a far more traditional approach to building a Unix-like
system, in that it's a monolithic kernel (the kernel exists
in a single address space), while Minix is a microkernel
(services are logically distinct and isolated from one
another, and communicate via message-passing). Famously,
Tannenbaum took Torvalds to task for this decision, declaring
Linux obsolete before it was finished. Of course, it is now,
by far, the most popular and important operating system in
the world.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

On 23 Apr 2023 at 06:10p, Arelor pondered and said...

Re: Re: Synchronet vs Mystic vs ??
By: tenser to Arelor on Mon Apr 24 2023 07:23 am

Ooophf; point of order: those aren't classical "Linux" utilities, they're classical _Unix_ utilities. Most Linux distros get the userland tools from GNU, whereas BSD inherited them from Unix and
each project maintains its own userspace.

I think I have expressed myself quite badly there. What I meant is that core utilities Linux users take for granted have their BSD versions (and if you check the source code, often predate Linux by a mile).

No worries; I get what you're saying.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

Arelor wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

I don't know about NetBSD, but one of OpenBSD's objectives is to have defaults good enough that no tweaking is necessary at a low level.
Which means they strive to have services you can install and forget.
For example, the default httpd launches chrooted and with privilege separation and sandboxing enabled by default, and the only thing you
are expected to do is to configure your domains and TLS certs and such. You can break out of the defaults if needed, but if you have to do it
is considered a bit of a failure on their part.

That's good to know - OpenBSD always has a security focus to it.



... HACK THE PLANET!
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
* Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)

Hello Adept!

** On Saturday 22.04.23 - 20:40, Adept wrote to Ogg:

Thanks for the printer recommendation, regardless. I had
previously used a Brother laser printer, and liked it. But
I suppose the open question is what's good quality _now_
for printers, rather than who made good printers 15+ years
ago.

It's pretty easy these days with people leaving reviews.


--- OpenXP 5.0.57
* Origin: (} Pointy McPointFace (21:4/106.21)

It's pretty easy these days with people leaving reviews.

Yeah, though sometimes reviews wind up being, "And my printer failed immediately!". But when I look at a variety of printers, that's a review that most all of them have. So it's a matter of comparison, and if there's only 10 reviews, or I'm in the wrong place, or whatever...

But, really, I'm over complicating it. Certainly, there are technical review sites that'd lead me to the right place anyway, and in Germany I have no doubt that there are ratings somewhere telling me about the highest-rated printers for a given need.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

Java is excellent at what it does, and is still an industry leader in a lot of places. JavaScript isn't really a competitor or anything, the intended use case and problems it addresses are completely different. But yeah, it's always seemed screwy to me that they chose to use the name "javascript"...alas...

Well, Node.js is pretty popular, even beyond FrontEnd tooling. I've used it and Deno quite a bit. It's used a lot with Apollo as a GraphQL server as well as with socketio for rtc stuff. It's a first class option for AWS Lambda and many similar FaaS runtimes and services.

As to the name, it was a marketting gimick that came from Netscape wanting to piggyback on the popularity of Java at the time. IIRC, the original name was supposed to be LiveScript, not to be confused with a more recent language using that name.


--
Michael J. Ryan
+o roughneckbbs.com
tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)

My othernet hub, back in the day, ran 10 DOS nodes running Remote
Access. He needed another node for a file server, some DOS-level networking that wasn't LANTastic, and a room full of beige desktops running on baker's racks with cabling everywhere. It was a pretty
amazing sight to see back then.

I remember setting up a couple of computers using coax ethernet (10-base-T iirc) and not knowing anything at the time... using a copy of NT4 Server from a zip disk without a lot of the extras. We had a computer, but not an extra HD for one of the nodes, so managed to get everything needed for basic boot on a floppy. Using a parallel zip drive for main storage on one of the nodes. It was interresting learning about TCP/IP configuration in DOS at the time (late 1996).

Coax because the cards, cables etc were dirt cheap and didn't have a lot of money back then (working two jobs) until I managed to get a paying job doing helpdesk support and shifted web development. Was definitely a relatively fun time in my life.

As to what we ran, it was Renegade (of course), remember having to use a hex editor on the .OVR file every single release to get many of the display mods working. By contrast, SynchroNet is way, way more flexible out of the box, even if the JS environment is a bit dated and very different than where CommonJS and now EcmaScript Modules landed.


--
Michael J. Ryan
+o roughneckbbs.com
tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)

Yeah, at the time, Synchronet probably would have cost a bit much for me too (I was 14 years old when I started my first BBS). Also, somehow I wasn't aware of Synchronet at the time either. I don't remember seeeing any Synchronet BBSes in my area in the 90s.

Similar boat here, even if I was a couple years older (born in '74). There were about 4-5 Synchronet boards in the Phoenix area, mostly 2-8 line BBSes, seemed to be the option most were running for multiline. There were a handful of MajorBBS boards as well, 2 smaller (6 line) and a couple really big 24-50 lines (rock garden and flatlands iirc).


--
Michael J. Ryan
+o roughneckbbs.com
tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)

There was a crack and 250-node key combo that was created and released (for sbbs v2) at some point too. I think I have it available for download on Vertrauen. It turns out roll-your-own-copy-protection is probably not the best idea I've ever had. :-)

I find the fact that you have a crack for your own software on your BBS infinitely amusing (to say the least). :-)


--
Michael J. Ryan
+o roughneckbbs.com
tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)

Maybe you're thinking of Mustang Software, the company that made
Wildcat?

Right - Wildcat! was also a cool one; if the sysop/bbS used it/modified it in a good way... I guess nothings changed in 30+ years. :P

It's really funny, I remember when I first started playing with RIPTerm... and the first Wildcat board I saw had a pretty good UI for RIP... then after calling around and realizing that every, single, wildcat board looked exactly the same, I just stopped altogether. There were so many in 602 back then... mostly hung out on the Renegade/Telegard boards (1993-1997).


--
Michael J. Ryan
+o roughneckbbs.com
tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com (21:3/149)