Science often separates itself from religion by stating that Science deals with fact and religion relies on faith....

Consider the following...the big bang theory states that just 'prior' to the big bang (which actually doesn't make a lot of sense) there was nothing...no mass, no space, no time...not a spec of the smallest/microscopic anything...and there was no space, no emptiness...and no time. And from 'this' which actually didn't exist, because there was no `this' came everything...and what is the proof for this? Well, there really is no proof, because the scientific theories can only get us back to a few seconds prior to the BigBang. So actually what science is relying on is faith, in the faith that their theories are true, without having any real proof. Faith is also the basis for religion.
I find this interesting....no matter which way you lean,it ultimately comes down to faith.

What do others think or feel?

Owl


NIGHTOWL BBS
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Re: Faith
By: Owl to All on Mon Feb 06 2012 21:20:00

Consider the following...the big bang theory states that just 'prior' to the big bang (which actually doesn't make a lot of sense) there was nothing...no mass, no space, no time...not a spec of the smallest/microscopic anything... there was no space, no emptiness...and no time. And from 'this' which actua

I haven't yet encountered a theory that adequately addresses this problem, but there have been a number of attempts at doing so. In the end they all tend to come back to some sort of infinite loop, or a time when there was nothing. (If our universe was created out of the remains of another, then where did that other come from? And so forth.) It's frustrating indeed.

didn't exist, because there was no `this' came everything...and what is the proof for this? Well, there really is no proof, because the scientific theories can only get us back to a few seconds prior to the BigBang. So actually what science is relying on is faith, in the faith that their theori are true, without having any real proof. Faith is also the basis for religi

All that a "believer" in the big bang theory needs to decide is whether God set that process in motion or if some as-yet-unexplained phenomenon was responsible.

To choose "God" as the answer is to choose faith. You've now got your final answer to every question. Why did this happen? Because of God! You need never ask another question for as long as you live, because you already "know" the answer.

I don't have "faith" in science. I don't trust that everything it has ever told me is true. A new discovery could be made at any time that totally blows away things that I've accepted as "fact" for most of my life. That's fine by me. I prefer a pursuit of real answers rather than acceptance of hollow assurances. I can accept my own ignorance and the limits of current knowledge. I can accept that what I think is true may in fact be false. I can live without a safety net based on a fairy tale. I simply accept what I feel is the best answer until something else comes along.

I don't believe that there is a God, but I tend to think of myself as an agnostic. I would accept God if it could be proven to me. I can't disprove God as I don't have the means at my disposal to do so. I also can't readily prove that there isn't a magical pink elephant dancing around on the far side of the moon, but I can choose to dismiss it as silliness because, really, it's pretty fucking unlikely.

echicken
electronic chicken bbs - bbs.electronicchicken.com - 416-273-7230

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Re: Faith
By: Owl to All on Mon Feb 06 2012 09:20 pm

Science often separates itself from religion by stating that Science deals w fact and religion relies on faith....

Consider the following...the big bang theory states that just 'prior' to the big bang (which actually doesn't make a lot of sense) there was nothing...no mass, no space, no time...not a spec of the smallest/microscopic anything... there was no space, no emptiness...and no time. And from 'this' which actua didn't exist, because there was no `this' came everything...and what is the proof for this? Well, there really is no proof, because the scientific theories can only get us back to a few seconds prior to the BigBang. So actually what science is relying on is faith, in the faith that their theori are true, without having any real proof. Faith is also the basis for religi
I find this interesting....no matter which way you lean,it ultimately comes down to faith.

What do others think or feel?

Owl

The big bang theory doesn't make and presumption about 'before' the big bang.
There was no 'before', as time and space began at the big bang. As Hawking says, asking what was before the big bang is like asking what is north of the north pole.

The problem is the human mind cannot imagine non-existance, so we cannot perceive or imagine what nothing is like. This may be why so many cultures believe in life after death, because it is not possible to imagine non-existance, only existance.

I don't agree that its 'faith' though. Faith is belief in something without evidence. That is different to not knowing or hypothesising.

The evidence that the universe began with sudden expansion is pretty solid, that time and space expanded from a point. Why is speculative, but the big bang theory doesn't explain why, only how.

I blieve there are two possibilities, either the universe exists, or it
doesn't exist, and both possibilities are real. In order for you to percieve it, it does exist. But it also doesn't exist as well, but you don't need to
be there to percieve that. In fact, you CANT perceive the universe not existing.


---
■ Synchronet ■ MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org

Re: Faith
By: echicken to Owl on Tue Feb 07 2012 12:30 pm

I haven't yet encountered a theory that adequately addresses this problem, b there have been a number of attempts at doing so. In the end they all tend come back to some sort of infinite loop, or a time when there was nothing. our universe was created out of the remains of another, then where did that other come from? And so forth.) It's frustrating indeed.

If you take the beginning of the big bang as the start of space AND time (and space/time is one entity anyway), then the problem is moot. That is, the universe always existed, it just is changing its thermodynamic state.

Remember, you are within the universe, and the universe is the totatly of all existance, so if you are trying to imaging yourself out its bounds, in space
or time, you are thinking about the problem wrong. You can only be within
the bounds of the unverse, and that means within the current space/time reality, which is bounded at the start by the big bang.

---
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Re: Faith
By: Boraxman to echicken on Wed Feb 08 2012 18:48:21

If you take the beginning of the big bang as the start of space AND time (an space/time is one entity anyway), then the problem is moot. That is, the universe always existed, it just is changing its thermodynamic state.

Remember, you are within the universe, and the universe is the totatly of al existance, so if you are trying to imaging yourself out its bounds, in space or time, you are thinking about the problem wrong. You can only be within the bounds of the unverse, and that means within the current space/time reality, which is bounded at the start by the big bang.

Yeah, I misused the word "universe" in my post. Of course if it is by definition everything, then there is no "before", "after", "inside" or "outside". It doesn't matter, though; I'm not a physicist or even a particularly intelligent individual, so it's no surprise that I don't really "get" this stuff. My point was that it really doesn't matter if I understand this stuff or not. I don't always need an answer; I don't need "God" to step in where my understanding of facts falters. I can simply accept not (yet) knowing.

echicken
electronic chicken bbs - bbs.electronicchicken.com - 416-273-7230

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Re: Faith
By: Boraxman to echicken on Wed Feb 08 2012 18:48:21

Nonsense, the universe didn't always exist. If it did then there would be no Big Bang at all!

M-Theory states that two or more Branes (Membranes, 2 dimensional planes full of matter and energy, mostly hydrogen) collided to caused the Big Bang and caused our universe to form from it by stretching space and time by filling it with matter and energy. There are four dimensions that we can detect, and seven that we cannot detect yet because they are either too small or our human senses cannot adapt to them. Case in point the human eye and brain cannot see the warp in space time that gravity causes. So we don't see gravity wells around the Earth and Moon, we just see them move.

For each and every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, so an antimatter universe was created as well. It bends space time in the opposite way so time travels backward relative to our universe and all matter is antimatter in that universe. The key to time travel is to stay in that universe near the antimatter version of a black hole but not too close so that time flows backward fast and then travel back into our matter universe and we'll be coming back in the past. In our matter universe just hang near a matter black hole and time slows down and when we return the universe is in the future and we can travel forward in time that way. This is the Doctor Who model using black holes for time travel and it might just work.

---
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Part of me would like to believe in God, the afterlife, eternity in heaven,
and being there with my loved ones, but, what about this scenario:

Suppose I make it to heaven, but my loved ones don't, all because they
couldn't believe? Then I'd consider myself damned for eternity, because being there with my loved ones was all I ever wanted, and nobody, not even Jesus, could take their place.

And anyone who thinks they should spend eternity with Jesus, while other decent people burn in hell, seems pretty self-centered. Maybe you tried to turn people into believers, but they just couldn't wrap their heads around the miracle of Jesus, so unfortunately, eternal damnation is their destiny.

Lots of believers try to get me to join the team, and in the past, I've tried hard to become one, but what's the answer to this potential dilemma? That I will get off so hard on being with Jesus that I will not care about my family anymore?

If I could find the way around this, then I will continue trying to become a believer.

Maybe God will say "You were such a good believer, that we are gonna give you
a couple hall passes for your loved ones who didn't make it!" Is that in
there somewhere?

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A27 (Raspberry Pi)
* Origin: Cyberia BBS | Cyberia.Darktech.Org | Kingwood, TX

Re: Faith
By: metalhead to All on Thu Jul 14 2016 01:05 am

Maybe God will say "You were such a good believer, that we are gonna give you a couple hall passes for your loved ones who didn't make it!" Is that in there somewhere?

Afraid not. Sorry, but each person must earn their own way into heaven.
Your righteousness can't get me into heaven, nor can my righteous get you into
heaven.


... For my birthday I got a humidifier and a de-humidifier... I put them in the same room and let them fight it out.

---
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Re: Faith
By: John Guillory to metalhead on Thu Jul 14 2016 01:51 am

Re: Faith
By: metalhead to All on Thu Jul 14 2016 01:05 am

Maybe God will say "You were such a good believer, that we are gonna gi

ve

you a couple hall passes for your loved ones who didn't make it!" Is th

at

in there somewhere?

Afraid not. Sorry, but each person must earn their own way into heaven.
Your righteousness can't get me into heaven, nor can my righteous get you i

nto

heaven.

... For my birthday I got a humidifier and a de-humidifier... I put them in

the same room and let them fight it out.


Wow... So, all the great people who just couldn't believe due to a lack of evidence, or were given a highly skeptical mind by some deity are punished for doing exactly what they were designed to do?

How odd.

---
■ Synchronet ■ Solar Pi - telnet://solarpi.coreyreichle.com

On 07/14/16, metalhead said the following...

Part of me would like to believe in God, the afterlife, eternity in heaven, and being there with my loved ones, but, what about this
scenario:

That is a very good point. One of many good points that can also be made.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A27 (Raspberry Pi)
* Origin: Cyberia BBS | Cyberia.Darktech.Org | Kingwood, TX

On 07/14/16, John Guillory said the following...

Re: Faith
By: metalhead to All on Thu Jul 14 2016 01:05 am

Maybe God will say "You were such a good believer, that we are gonna you a couple hall passes for your loved ones who didn't make it!" Is in there somewhere?

Afraid not. Sorry, but each person must earn their own way into heaven. Your righteousness can't get me into heaven, nor can my
righteous get you into heaven.

How good can heaven be if you know your loved ones are burning in a lake of that your god made for them? I would not feel that heaven was that great a place as I've been told.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A27 (Raspberry Pi)
* Origin: Cyberia BBS | Cyberia.Darktech.Org | Kingwood, TX

Maybe God will say "You were such a good believer, that we are gonna give you a couple hall passes for your loved ones who didn't make it!" Is that in there somewhere?

Afraid not. Sorry, but each person must earn their own way into heaven.

The way you get into Heaven is by doing the one thing God requires..."to believe on The One He has sent (Jesus Christ)". The Philippian jailer asked Paul and Silas "What must I do to be saved??", and was told "Believe on The Lord Jesus Christ". Nothing more, nothing less...no complicated rituals or ordinances to go through, etc.

Your righteousness can't get me into heaven, nor can my righteous get
you into heaven.

Correct. The prophet Isaiah notes that "all our righteousness is as filthy rags" (literally bloody menstrual cloths (unclean)).

While God's Free Love Gift is available to whosoever would come to Him in humility and repentance as a FREE GIFT, the offer EXPIRES when a person
dies.

Once you receive that Free Gift, you want to serve The Lord, to show
your thankfulness and gratitude that He did what He did, because He most certainly didn't have to do it.

Daryl

... Why don't potholes knock your tires back into alignment??
--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.50
■ Synchronet ■ The Thunderbolt BBS - Little Rock, AR - wx1der.dyndns.org

And anyone who thinks they should spend eternity with Jesus, while
other decent people burn in hell, seems pretty self-centered. Maybe you tried to turn people into believers, but they just couldn't wrap their heads around the miracle of Jesus, so unfortunately, eternal damnation
is their destiny.

Everyone gets at least one chance to hear the Gospel...and sadly, not everyone will accept it. With it being "a free gift", with the ONLY
requirement that each person accept this Free Love Gift by believing on
The Lord Jesus Christ, the One that God has sent; the fact that most
reject it likely makes the angels of glory shudder in utter disbelief.

However, I believe that for those who accepted Christ, there will NOT be
any memory or thought of family members, loved ones, friends, who are not
in Heaven, because they chose NOT to accept Christ as Lord and Saviour.

Or, maybe those in Heaven will have more than "the peace that passes all understanding" in that while everyone had the same chance to accept or reject Christ as they did, some chose to accept it, while others chose to reject it. That is an unknown to the believer, until they get to Heaven.

Heaven is a place where there is no sorrow, crying, mourning, pain, or
death. Knowing that a family member, loved one, or friend was in Hell because they chose to reject The Lord, would violate and destroy that joy.

As the song notes "One day, we'll understand it better, by and by".

But, it brings up a conumdrum that "Everybody wants to go to Heaven, but nobody wants to die". Death is a prerequisite to eternity, either with God,
or without Him...and eternity is FOREVER.

Sadly, for those who chose to reject The Lord, they will forever have
the memory that they had the chance to accept Christ, and they turned it
down.

King Agrippa, who the Apostle Paul, testified in front of, noted that "you're almost persuading me to become a Christian". But, the word "almost"
is like the joke with the word "close" -- it only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

Even though I've known The Lord for nearly 40 years, I still can NOT understand WHY He would even bother with "sinful mankind", because after
He gave our first parents, Adam and Eve, every thing they could have
wanted or needed in The Garden Of Eden, they still "thumbed their noses"
at Him, breaking the one simple rule that He had laid down. He could've
very easily zapped the entire human race at that point, or immediately consigned everyone to eternal damnation in The Lake Of Fire. Even the
Psalmist tells God that "I can not understand why you would even want to
deal with puny man".

One of the poems that The Lord has given me in my over 400 poem Gospel Poetry Collection is entitled "A Hug, A Handshake, and A Cry"...the three things I want when I meet Jesus Christ face to face. I *STILL* don't
understand WHY He did what He did, taking the judgment that was meant
for me, and then accepting such an unworthy vile sinner, such as me.

In truth, God wanted "a family", and before the foundation of the world,
the Divine Plan was that He Himself would bear His Own Righteous Judgment, scourging, and crucifixion, even though He had no sin to pay for. But, He
took upon Himself, in the Person of His Son, The Lord Jesus Christ, God In
The Flesh, the sins of everyone who had or will ever live, plus the Divine Judgment that was meant for us. His Death and Resurrection opened the gates
of Heaven to any and all who would believe upon Him to forgive their sins,
by the shedding of His Precious Blood.

The story of the rich man, and Lazarus the beggar, in The Book Of Luke,
shows the evidence of what happens at death. The rich man "was arrayed
in fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day"...while the beggar
(Lazarus) laid at the gate of the rich man's place, wanting only the
crumbs from the rich man's table...and the dogs came and licked his sores".

One day, both of them died...Lazarus went to Paradise (Abraham's bosom),
and rich man went to Torments (Hell). The rich man called out to Father
Abraham to dip his finger in cool water, to cool the rich man's tongue,
for he was tormented in the flame. Yet, Abraham told him that "in life
you had good things, and Lazarus had nothing. Now, you are in torments,
and he is comforted. There is also a great gulf (chasm) between us, that
we can't cross from one area to another".

As a side note, Hell was originally divided into two compartments.
One was known as Paradise, where those who believed in a coming
Redeemer (Jesus Christ), went upon death...before Christ shed His
Blood on The Cross to pay for mankind's sins, and was resurrected
from the dead. The other was known as Torments, where the wicked dead
were tormented by demons. After Christ's resurrection, He took all the
souls in Paradise (and Paradise itself) to Heaven...and Hell enlarged
itself as a result.

There are probably some in my family who are either still alove, or
who have passed on, who refused God's Free Love Gift. While it causes
regret for me now, once I get to Heaven, that regret and memory will be
forever erased.

I heard one individual say that "he didn't want to become a Christian, because of all of the other hypocrites". Admittedly, there are many of
those out there...but once one accepts Christ as Lord and Saviour, they
will want to live a life pleasing to Him. Yet, I will have to answer
ONLY for what I've done, and for no one else.

However, His Grace is a License To Serve, and NOT a License To Sin;
but we can never repay Jesus Christ for His Sacrifice for us. Every
sin ever done, or yet to be done, has been paid for...because if even
one sin wasn't paid for, Christ will still be in the grave. His
Resurrection is "God's Seal Of Approval" for what Christ did on The
Cross. When Christ died on The Cross, He shouted "Tetelestai", meaning
"It Is Finished" -- ALL sins have been paid for.

And, I still have the sin nature, as everyone else does, and I still
sin every day...because it's the humans "default nature". Yet, 1 John
1:9-10 says that "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to
forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we
say we have no sin, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us".

God's Free Gift of Salvation, while available to everyone who would
ask, coming to Him in humility and repentance...it expires upon ones
death.

Daryl

... Why's the third hand on the watch called the second hand?
--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.50
■ Synchronet ■ The Thunderbolt BBS - Little Rock, AR - wx1der.dyndns.org

On 07/14/16, Daryl Stout said the following...

And anyone who thinks they should spend eternity with Jesus, while other decent people burn in hell, seems pretty self-centered. Maybe y tried to turn people into believers, but they just couldn't wrap thei heads around the miracle of Jesus, so unfortunately, eternal damnatio is their destiny.

Everyone gets at least one chance to hear the Gospel...and sadly, not everyone will accept it. With it being "a free gift", with the ONLY requirement that each person accept this Free Love Gift by believing on The Lord Jesus Christ, the One that God has sent; the fact that most reject it likely makes the angels of glory shudder in utter disbelief.

Do you even listen to yourself? How can a "free gift" be free if there are conditions attached to it? If there is ONLY one requirement, then the gift
is not free, is it?

However, I believe that for those who accepted Christ, there will NOT
be any memory or thought of family members, loved ones, friends, who are not in Heaven, because they chose NOT to accept Christ as Lord and Saviour.

So god will alter a person's mind and memories and make them robots? This is
a kind and loving god?

Or, maybe those in Heaven will have more than "the peace that passes
all understanding" in that while everyone had the same chance to accept
or reject Christ as they did, some chose to accept it, while others
chose to reject it. That is an unknown to the believer, until they get
to Heaven.

Frankly, it is an unknown to believer and unbeliever alike. The only ones
who know are all dead and we can't ask them.

Heaven is a place where there is no sorrow, crying, mourning, pain, or death. Knowing that a family member, loved one, or friend was in Hell because they chose to reject The Lord, would violate and destroy that
joy.

So heaven is a place where everybody sits around contemplating their navel?
If god can create peace in heavan, then he can do it on Earth.

As the song notes "One day, we'll understand it better, by and by".

But, it brings up a conumdrum that "Everybody wants to go to Heaven,
but nobody wants to die". Death is a prerequisite to eternity, either
with God, or without Him...and eternity is FOREVER.

This creates a conundrum for the believer. If heaven is so wonderful, then
why do you do everything in your power to stave it off? Wouldn't you be playing in traffic or licking power outlets?

Sadly, for those who chose to reject The Lord, they will forever have the memory that they had the chance to accept Christ, and they turned it down.

Why should I believe any such tale?

King Agrippa, who the Apostle Paul, testified in front of, noted that "you're almost persuading me to become a Christian". But, the word "almost" is like the joke with the word "close" -- it only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

This sounds like a historical event that would have been recorded like many events that were recorded around King Agrippa. I'd like to see this documentation.

In truth, God wanted "a family", and before the foundation of the
world, the Divine Plan was that He Himself would bear His Own Righteous Judgment, scourging, and crucifixion, even though He had no sin to pay for. But, He took upon Himself, in the Person of His Son, The Lord Jesus Christ, God In The Flesh, the sins of everyone who had or will ever
live, plus the Divine Judgment that was meant for us. His Death and Resurrection opened the gates of Heaven to any and all who would believe upon Him to forgive their sins, by the shedding of His Precious Blood.

god wanted a family? Why not use the family that was created when it was created? If there can be one god, there can certainly be other family
members for this god. Just because you think you know god, doesn't mean you know everything about this god.

God's Free Gift of Salvation, while available to everyone who would
ask, coming to Him in humility and repentance...it expires upon ones death.

As we have found out earlier, this 'free gift' comes with a price. So it is not free.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A27 (Raspberry Pi)
* Origin: Cyberia BBS | Cyberia.Darktech.Org | Kingwood, TX