I had a friend ask me a question about porting his C++ programs for a Mac. I've tried his Linux ports, and they run well.
Quest:
Is there a difference in programming for the PowerPC, Intel types from the standard Apples?
How about the different Mac OS versions?

Thanks
Dan
Stanton, MI

... What is mind? No matter! What is matter? Never mind! - Homer S.
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Re: Mac programming
By: Dan Giese to All on Sat Dec 11 2010 12:20 pm

I had a friend ask me a question about porting his C++ programs for a Mac. I've tried his Linux ports, and they run well.
Quest:
Is there a difference in programming for the PowerPC, Intel types from the standard Apples?
How about the different Mac OS versions?

I've read a little about this, a while back, while I don't know much about writing for Linux between architectures, I would assume as long as you're writing for userland there's not much, if any, difference. Kernel level, of course, would probably be a different beastie.

As for writing for Mac, it would be different. If I remember, Mac now uses Intel processors with a heavily modded UNIX environment. Apps written for classic Mac should run on the new architecture so long as they've included backware support (probably emulation), which I'm sure they've done. However,
I doubt they would compile unless Apple has special tools available.

There is an effort to make some special libraries or emulations to enable porting current Mac software to Linux, but last I checked these aren't
anywhere close to a release point yet. The reason it's difficult is that
Mac's kernel (I think it's called Darwin?) is so heavily customized for the Mac's specific chipsets and user experience, and they have many proprietary libraries and tools in the OS. I'm sure it's quite a bit like trying to port Windows apps to Linux: sure, Windows is POSIX compliant, and they each do
many of the same things, but the way they go about doing those things is completely different.

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Re: Mac programming
By: Dan Giese to All on Sat Dec 11 2010 12:20:00

I had a friend ask me a question about porting his C++ programs for a Mac. I've tried his Linux ports, and they run well.
Quest:
Is there a difference in programming for the PowerPC, Intel types from the standard Apples?
How about the different Mac OS versions?

What do you mean by "standard Apples"? Apple has totally switched over to Intel in their machines now, so the Intel Macs are the standard now.

From what I can tell, Apple has done their best to make the transition from PowerPC to Intel as transparent as possible. If an app compiled for PowerPC and earlier versions of OS X, I'd think it should compile with an Intel-based Mac and recent versions of OS X too - maybe with only minor tweaks.

I've done a little bit of C++ on Mac, but not a whole lot. For porting C++ to Mac, it depends on what libraries the C++ app uses. Purely text-based console apps would probably port fairly easily. One time I was working on some C++ apps using nCurses (a C library) for a text-based user interface and was able to get that to compile on OS X with a few minor tweaks to the makefile (different library filenames). If the app uses a GUI, then it might or might not port easily, depending on what GUI library it uses. wxWidgets is a cross-platform GUI library, so if it uses wxWidgets, it would probably port fairly easily. Hoever, if the app uses a different GUI library (such as MFC, for example), then it would require a fair amount of work to port it so it will run on OS X.

From what I understand, OS X and the apps that come with it were written in Objective-C; thus, the software development tools that Apple ships for OS X favor Objective-C as the standard supported language on OS X. C++ is supported too though.

Nightfox

Re: Mac programming
By: Dreamer to Dan Giese on Sat Jan 08 2011 09:44:00

As for writing for Mac, it would be different. If I remember, Mac now uses Intel processors with a heavily modded UNIX environment.

From what I understand, Darwin (which OS X is basd on) is a variant of BSD UNIX, and as such, it's at least very close to BSD, which is a fairly widely-accepted standard UNIX distribution.

Apps written for
classic Mac should run on the new architecture so long as they've included backware support (probably emulation), which I'm sure they've done. However I doubt they would compile unless Apple has special tools available.

I believe Carbon was a library that Apple released to help ease the transition from classic Mac to OS X. Apps written with the Carbon library could easily be compiled and run for both classic Mac OS and OS X. I'm not sure if Apple is still supporting the Carbon library in modern versions of OS X though.

Mac's kernel (I think it's called Darwin?) is so heavily customized for the Mac's specific chipsets and user experience, and they have many proprietary libraries and tools in the OS.

I've seen a version of Darwin that runs on Intel machines. I don't think Apple owns Darwin; I believe Darwin is in the public domain. OS X is based on Darwin, but I think the major difference between OS X and plain Darwin is that OS X adds its own GUI, specialized software libraries, and directory structure. It seems to me that OS X, in a way, is an alternative to the XFree windowing system.

Nightfox

Re: Mac programming
By: Nightfox to Dreamer on Fri Jan 21 2011 08:49 pm

Re: Mac programming
By: Dreamer to Dan Giese on Sat Jan 08 2011 09:44:00

As for writing for Mac, it would be different. If I remember, Mac now us Intel processors with a heavily modded UNIX environment.

From what I understand, Darwin (which OS X is basd on) is a variant of BSD UNIX, and as such, it's at least very close to BSD, which is a fairly widely-accepted standard UNIX distribution.

Apps written for
classic Mac should run on the new architecture so long as they've include backware support (probably emulation), which I'm sure they've done. Howe I doubt they would compile unless Apple has special tools available.

I believe Carbon was a library that Apple released to help ease the transiti from classic Mac to OS X. Apps written with the Carbon library could easily compiled and run for both classic Mac OS and OS X. I'm not sure if Apple is still supporting the Carbon library in modern versions of OS X though.

Mac's kernel (I think it's called Darwin?) is so heavily customized for t Mac's specific chipsets and user experience, and they have many proprieta libraries and tools in the OS.

I've seen a version of Darwin that runs on Intel machines. I don't think Ap owns Darwin; I believe Darwin is in the public domain. OS X is based on Darwin, but I think the major difference between OS X and plain Darwin is th OS X adds its own GUI, specialized software libraries, and directory structu It seems to me that OS X, in a way, is an alternative to the XFree windowing system.

Nightfox

Darwin is for intel chips.
Macs run on intel chips now, since the 10.X OSX, I think.
I don't known about thier GUI thou. Glass or Aqua.

"Practise safe Lunch, Use a Condiment"


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Re: Mac programming
By: Corey to Nightfox on Sat Jan 22 2011 09:18:08

Darwin is for intel chips.
Macs run on intel chips now, since the 10.X OSX, I think.

Since Darwin is based on BSD UNIX, I imagine it can be compiled and used for virtually any CPU, not just Intel. Darwin has always been the basis for OS X, even when Apple was using PowerPC CPUs.

Re: Mac programming
By: Nightfox to Corey on Sat Jan 22 2011 03:04 pm

Re: Mac programming
By: Corey to Nightfox on Sat Jan 22 2011 09:18:08

Darwin is for intel chips.
Macs run on intel chips now, since the 10.X OSX, I think.

Since Darwin is based on BSD UNIX, I imagine it can be compiled and used for virtually any CPU, not just Intel. Darwin has always been the basis for OS even when Apple was using PowerPC CPUs.

yep, check out the darwin site. you can get it free without the mac guis.

"Practise safe Lunch, Use a Condiment"


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Re: Mac programming
By: Nightfox to Corey on Sat Jan 22 2011 03:04 pm

Since Darwin is based on BSD UNIX, I imagine it can be compiled and used for virtually any CPU, not just Intel. Darwin has always been the basis for OS even when Apple was using PowerPC CPUs.

If it helps anyone's story.. I have successfully installed OSX 10.4/10.5 on my AMD machine in the past. I got QE/CI working as well as whatever else I had to manually do to get to work. As soon as everything worked, I deleted it and installed something else, because I didn't like it. I just wanted to do it because I could. :)

AMD machines were iffy, and not very supported. But for awhile there, there were people making patched OSX OSes adding support for AMD and such. Probably wasn't all that legal, either..

axisd

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Re: Mac programming
By: Access Denied to Nightfox on Sun Jan 23 2011 09:02:49

If it helps anyone's story.. I have successfully installed OSX 10.4/10.5 on AMD machine in the past. I got QE/CI working as well as whatever else I had manually do to get to work. As soon as everything worked, I deleted it and installed something else, because I didn't like it. I just wanted to do it because I could. :)

I've tried the same.. Interesting to go to "About This Mac" and see it show that the computer has an AMD CPU installed. :)

AMD machines were iffy, and not very supported. But for awhile there, there were people making patched OSX OSes adding support for AMD and such.

As far as I know, people are still doing that.. The "hackintosh" community probably won't stop for a while.

A few years ago, I heard about a new company, called Psystar, that was making & selling computers with OS X as an option for the OS. It looks like they have been put out of business due to legal issues though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psystar_Corporation

It looks like there is another company operating now that is making Mac clones, called Quo Computer:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-10251943-37.html http://www.tuaw.com/2010/09/10/psystar-is-dead-long-live-quo-computer/

Nightfox

Nightfox wrote:

I've seen a version of Darwin that runs on Intel machines. I don't think Apple
owns Darwin; I believe Darwin is in the public domain. OS X is based on Darwin, but I think the major difference between OS X and plain Darwin is that
OS X adds its own GUI, specialized software libraries, and directory structure.
It seems to me that OS X, in a way, is an alternative to the XFree windowing system.

Aqua (the gui) is baset on NextStep, which apple baught, they do own darwin, though that part is open source... there's been some effort to port he aqua/next style gui libraries for say linux, but hasn't seen much traction.

Darwin is a BSD userland toolchain on a mach microkernel...

--
Michael J. Ryan - http://tracker1.info/

... FRA #047: Don't trust a man wearing a better suit than your own.

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Nightfox wrote:

From what I understand, OS X and the apps that come with it were written in Objective-C; thus, the software development tools that Apple ships for OS X favor Objective-C as the standard supported language on OS X. C++ is supported
too though.

Mac alsp comes out of the box on osx with a Java runtime, and JNI bindings for native looking apps (see Neo Office)... beyond this Mono has a runtime and native UI bindings for mac, and gtk is supported on mac, with X11 support installed...

--
Michael J. Ryan - http://tracker1.info/

... B5: We all believe in something... greater than ourselves, even if it's just the blind forces of chance.

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Access Denied wrote:

AMD machines were iffy, and not very supported. But for awhile there, there were people making patched OSX OSes adding support for AMD and such. Probably wasn't all that legal, either..

Hackintoshes are cool, but since Apple sewed Psystar, commercial interests have pretty much stopped. No commercial support, but still plenty of Homebrew. My current laptop is a mac. nice hardware, with the ssd it boots to a working desktop in under 10 seconds (closer to 8)

--
Michael J. Ryan - http://tracker1.info/

... B5: I'm delirious with joy. It proves that if you confront the universe with good intentions in your heart, it will reflect that and reward your intent. Usually. It just doesn't always do it in the way you expect.

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Re: Re: Mac programming
By: Tracker1 to Access Denied on Tue Feb 15 2011 11:59 pm

Hackintoshes are cool, but since Apple sewed Psystar, commercial interests have pretty much stopped. No commercial support, but still plenty of Homebrew. My current laptop is a mac. nice hardware, with the ssd it boots to a working desktop in under 10 seconds (closer to 8)

I think it was more of the challenge of getting my computer to run it, that interested me more than anything. It took me a good week of fiddling around with it to get full QE/CI, sound, and reading everything properly. This was on an AMD 3700+ with a 9800GT as well, so not all that new or anything.

It was fun, but once I got everything working, I ended up deleting it and going back to Gentoo. It's not that it's a bad OS, it's just not any better (or worse) than anything else out there. I'm better off with what I know. :)

That an I'd definitely not spend that kind of money on an Apple. For that kind of money, you could have a PC two to three times better. Just another flavor of kool-aid to get people to drink, is all. Heh.

axisd

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■ Synchronet ■ thePharcyde_ >> telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin)

Access Denied wrote:

That an I'd definitely not spend that kind of money on an Apple. For that kind
of money, you could have a PC two to three times better. Just another flavor of
kool-aid to get people to drink, is all. Heh.

Not sure on the money point... the mini's are way overpriced, aside from that, it's pretty on par... my macbook pro was about the same price as a dell adamo... though there really isn't a direct non-plastic competitor now.

For the mbp, it's fairly rugged, and has excellent cooling that doesn't burn or overheat in an actual lap. lave a typical laptop on a couch or a bed while running... though there are more practical quick-release systems magsafe isn't bad, though extra chargers are insanely overpriced.

As to desktops, the mac pro is pretty on par with workstation class hardware... it's their consumer products that are more overpriced imho.

--
Michael J. Ryan - http://tracker1.info/

... FRA #139: Wives serve, brothers inherit.

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Re: Re: Mac programming
By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Tue Feb 15 2011 23:52:00

Aqua (the gui) is baset on NextStep, which apple baught, they do own darwin, though that part is open source... there's been some effort to port he aqua/next style gui libraries for say linux, but hasn't seen much traction.

Interesting, I didn't know Apple owned Darwin. And it seems kinda funny (or weird) that Apple bought NextStep, since Steve Jobs created the NextStep company..

I'd understand why Apple might not want to port the Aqua/Next GUI libraries to Linux - then it might be too easy to create a distribution of Linux that looks too much like OS X. I've seen Gnome themes that are designed to look like OS X, and they come really close, but it's still Gnome and Linux..

Nightfox

Re: Re: Mac programming
By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Tue Feb 15 2011 23:55:23

native UI bindings for mac, and gtk is supported on mac, with X11 support installed...

I wonder how GTK apps look on OS X.. I've used GTK apps in Windows, and you can tell they're GTK apps because they use the GTK-style folder browser and other UI elements from GTK, which look a bit different than the native Windows UI elements.

Nightfox

Re: Re: Mac programming
By: Tracker1 to Access Denied on Tue Feb 15 2011 23:59:16

Hackintoshes are cool, but since Apple sewed Psystar, commercial interests have pretty much stopped. No commercial support, but still plenty of

Recently I heard about a new company that is building Mac-compatible PCs and advertises them as such:
http://www.quocomputer.com
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-10251943-37.html

Homebrew. My current laptop is a mac. nice hardware, with the ssd it boots

I like Macs, but the thing that bugs me about them is that there always seems to be something missing that I'd like to see in one of their computers, and even their OS. For instance, they don't make a laptop that has a keyboard with a distinct numeric keypad. They don't offer Blu-Ray drives in their computers yet, either. No optical drive options with LightScribe that I know of, either. Thankfully, Apple finally included an HDMI port in one of their computers (the most recent Mac Mini) - hopefully they'll start including an HDMI port in their other computers too.

I guess it's a result of the fact that Apple produces both the hardware and the OS - your choices are limited to the company's limited selection of offerings.

Nightfox

Re: Re: Mac programming
By: Nightfox to Tracker1 on Thu Feb 17 2011 07:33 am

No optical drive options with LightScribe that I know of

I've had a LightScribe capable drive for ages, and I've never used it (the LightScribe feature, that is). I think I got one LightScribe DVD, but I just used it for something, without "printing" the label. We have LightScribe drives at work, as well. I've seen the results, but I never bothered to print a label myself.

Speaking of alternative ways of labeling discs, some drives can burn actual text on the inner or outer edge of the disc. I've seen some pictures, and it looked kind of cool.

|12|24- |48|15Morden


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Re: Re: Mac programming
By: Tracker1 to Access Denied on Tue Feb 15 2011 23:59:16

Apple doesn't really care about home brew Hackintosh, but no they do want Mac clones being sold.

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Re: Re: Mac programming
By: Tracker1 to Access Denied on Thu Feb 17 2011 02:16 am

Not sure on the money point... the mini's are way overpriced, aside from that, it's pretty on par... my macbook pro was about the same price as a del adamo... though there really isn't a direct non-plastic competitor now.

For the mbp, it's fairly rugged, and has excellent cooling that doesn't burn or overheat in an actual lap. lave a typical laptop on a couch or a bed whi running... though there are more practical quick-release systems magsafe isn't bad, though extra chargers are insanely overpriced.

As to desktops, the mac pro is pretty on par with workstation class hardware... it's their consumer products that are more overpriced imho.

I'm not totally sure about the laptops and mini stuff, but I've priced out desktops before just to see the difference. When I priced out an i7 with 8gb ram, a 24" monitor, a gtx260, and a 650 watt power supply, it was well under 2k. At the time I don't even think Apple had out the i-series boards, but rather a core2 duo with 3gb ram and 20" monitor was about the same price.

I'll stick with my PCs, and if I ever feel frisky again, I'll just install OSX on it if I really want to. But, again, when I did it the last time, nothing really stood out to me to switch to it from what I already know and like.

axisd

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Re: Re: Mac programming
By: Nightfox to Tracker1 on Thu Feb 17 2011 07:26 am

I wonder how GTK apps look on OS X.. I've used GTK apps in Windows, and you can tell they're GTK apps because they use the GTK-style folder browser and other UI elements from GTK, which look a bit different than the native Windo UI elements.

I actually can't stand to look at GTK apps. Everything is too boxed up with sharp corners and things that just don't seem to belong. I do like some GTK apps, don't get me wrong, but if I can switch it to use a Qt4 theme, I'd much rather do that. Oxygen is way easier on the eyes, imo. As for window decoration, I've come to really like endel's fluxbox themes on deviantart.com.

axisd

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Re: Re: Mac programming
By: Access Denied to Nightfox on Thu Feb 17 2011 17:59:55

I actually can't stand to look at GTK apps. Everything is too boxed up with sharp corners and things that just don't seem to belong. I do like some GTK apps, don't get me wrong, but if I can switch it to use a Qt4 theme, I'd muc rather do that. Oxygen is way easier on the eyes, imo.

I think GTK looks a little rough around the edges myself.. But I don't mind it too much. What bothers me more is when an app doesn't have the look & feel of the OS.

For creating an app with a GUI, there's a programming toolkit (native to C++) that I've gotten to like called wxWidgets - One reason I like it is that it allows you to create cross-platform apps with a GUI, so you can compile your code in different OSes with little or no code modification, and it uses the OS's native API for its GUI, so it looks like a native app.

Nightfox

Re: Re: Mac programming
By: Nightfox to Access Denied on Thu Feb 17 2011 05:04 pm

For creating an app with a GUI, there's a programming toolkit (native to C++ that I've gotten to like called wxWidgets - One reason I like it is that it allows you to create cross-platform apps with a GUI, so you can compile your code in different OSes with little or no code modification, and it uses the OS's native API for its GUI, so it looks like a native app.

That's awesome. I wish more applications went about it that way.

axisd

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Re: Re: Mac programming
By: Access Denied to Nightfox on Fri Feb 18 2011 18:49:24

allows you to create cross-platform apps with a GUI, so you can compile y code in different OSes with little or no code modification, and it uses t OS's native API for its GUI, so it looks like a native app.

That's awesome. I wish more applications went about it that way.

Me too.. There would be more apps available for all platforms if they did it that way.

I've heard some people say they think it's still better to use the OS's native GUI toolkits because the end result still looks "better" - although to me, an app that uses wxWidgets looks the same as any other native app for the OS.

Nightfox

Nightfox wrote:

Aqua (the gui) is baset on NextStep, which apple baught, they do own darwin, >> though that part is open source... there's been some effort to port he
aqua/next style gui libraries for say linux, but hasn't seen much traction.

Interesting, I didn't know Apple owned Darwin. And it seems kinda funny (or weird) that Apple bought NextStep, since Steve Jobs created the NextStep company..

I'd understand why Apple might not want to port the Aqua/Next GUI libraries to
Linux - then it might be too easy to create a distribution of Linux that looks
too much like OS X. I've seen Gnome themes that are designed to look like OS X, and they come really close, but it's still Gnome and Linux..

Wasn't apple doing the porting, just a bunch of guys trying to make a FLOSS API that's compatible... Don't recall the name of the project though...

--
Michael J. Ryan - http://tracker1.info/

... null

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Nightfox wrote:

native UI bindings for mac, and gtk is supported on mac, with X11 support >> installed...

I wonder how GTK apps look on OS X.. I've used GTK apps in Windows, and you can tell they're GTK apps because they use the GTK-style folder browser and other UI elements from GTK, which look a bit different than the native Windows
UI elements.

Same on OSX... if you're doing .Net/C# and want cross platform, if you are following MVC patterns, it's not too hard to maintain separate views for each platform (Win, GTK, OSX)

--
Michael J. Ryan - http://tracker1.info/

... null

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Nightfox wrote:

Hackintoshes are cool, but since Apple sewed Psystar, commercial interests >> have pretty much stopped. No commercial support, but still plenty of

Recently I heard about a new company that is building Mac-compatible PCs and advertises them as such:
http://www.quocomputer.com
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-10251943-37.html

Yeah, I saw that too...

Homebrew. My current laptop is a mac. nice hardware, with the ssd it boots

I like Macs, but the thing that bugs me about them is that there always seems to be something missing that I'd like to see in one of their computers, and even their OS. For instance, they don't make a laptop that has a keyboard with
a distinct numeric keypad. They don't offer Blu-Ray drives in their computers
yet, either. No optical drive options with LightScribe that I know of, either.
Thankfully, Apple finally included an HDMI port in one of their computers (the
most recent Mac Mini) - hopefully they'll start including an HDMI port in their
other computers too.

The numeric keyboard I don't miss too much, actually my macbook is the first touchpad I've used that I don't miss a mouse much on... as for BluRay, it's because Apple doesn't have the DRM sony (studios) requires for bluray licensing.

The macbooks have a minidv port iirc, which is compatible via dongle. It sucks, but way better than the old days... at least they aren't TOO bad on the dongle/adapter pricing.. the charger replacements/additions, that's insane.

I guess it's a result of the fact that Apple produces both the hardware and the
OS - your choices are limited to the company's limited selection of offerings.

Mostly, but you can always plugin a USB keyboard/mouse, and in the pro's you could install a blu-ray, but no playback software (DRM again). I think the lack of blu-ray is a crock of sh*t myself.

--
Michael J. Ryan - http://tracker1.info/

... null

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Access Denied wrote:

Not sure on the money point... the mini's are way overpriced, aside from >> that, it's pretty on par... my macbook pro was about the same price as a del >> adamo... though there really isn't a direct non-plastic competitor now.

For the mbp, it's fairly rugged, and has excellent cooling that doesn't burn >> or overheat in an actual lap. lave a typical laptop on a couch or a bed whi >> running... though there are more practical quick-release systems magsafe >> isn't bad, though extra chargers are insanely overpriced.

As to desktops, the mac pro is pretty on par with workstation class
hardware... it's their consumer products that are more overpriced imho.

I'm not totally sure about the laptops and mini stuff, but I've priced out desktops before just to see the difference. When I priced out an i7 with 8gb ram, a 24" monitor, a gtx260, and a 650 watt power supply, it was well under 2k. At the time I don't even think Apple had out the i-series boards, but rather a core2 duo with 3gb ram and 20" monitor was about the same price.

Yeah, I wish they'd sell a lower end desktop, but if you compare multi-cpu workstation/server boards to the Mac Pro series, it's not that different. I'm not a big fan of the mini or iMac, but the iMac isn't too bad.

I'll stick with my PCs, and if I ever feel frisky again, I'll just install OSX
on it if I really want to. But, again, when I did it the last time, nothing really stood out to me to switch to it from what I already know and like.

Yeah, there is a premium no doubt.. but they do put a bit more oomph into the hardware... aluminum cases are cool.. I run a PC desktop, only went mac on the laptop as Dell pissed me off, and they now don't seem to have a comparable laptop (formerly Adamo).

--
Michael J. Ryan - http://tracker1.info/

... null

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Nightfox wrote:

I actually can't stand to look at GTK apps. Everything is too boxed up with >> sharp corners and things that just don't seem to belong. I do like some GTK >> apps, don't get me wrong, but if I can switch it to use a Qt4 theme, I'd muc >> rather do that. Oxygen is way easier on the eyes, imo.

I think GTK looks a little rough around the edges myself.. But I don't mind it
too much. What bothers me more is when an app doesn't have the look & feel of
the OS.

For creating an app with a GUI, there's a programming toolkit (native to C++) that I've gotten to like called wxWidgets - One reason I like it is that it allows you to create cross-platform apps with a GUI, so you can compile your code in different OSes with little or no code modification, and it uses the OS's native API for its GUI, so it looks like a native app.

I almost always switch my GTK theme (on windows) so that it's at least closer to native look/feel... wouldn't know if/how to get more themes, so I could have one much closer (mac or win).

I like gnome for my desktop on linux, so no issues there... some apps though are butt ugly.

--
Michael J. Ryan - http://tracker1.info/

... null

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Nightfox wrote:

I've heard some people say they think it's still better to use the OS's native
GUI toolkits because the end result still looks "better" - although to me, an app that uses wxWidgets looks the same as any other native app for the OS.

The only real shortcoming to wxWidgets, is those pieces that don't have cross-platform equivalents simply don't exist in wx... it's least common denominator, so some UI features are much harder to implement.

There's a wx + javascript application set even...

--
Michael J. Ryan - http://tracker1.info/

... null

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■ Synchronet ■ Roughneck BBS - telnet://roughneckbbs.com - www.roughneckbbs.com

Re: Re: Mac programming
By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Tue Feb 22 2011 17:28:04

I'd understand why Apple might not want to port the Aqua/Next GUI librarie Linux - then it might be too easy to create a distribution of Linux that l too much like OS X. I've seen Gnome themes that are designed to look like X, and they come really close, but it's still Gnome and Linux..

Wasn't apple doing the porting, just a bunch of guys trying to make a FLOSS API that's compatible... Don't recall the name of the project though...

hmm, I hadn't heard about that. I suppose it's possible..

Nightfox

Re: Re: Mac programming
By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Tue Feb 22 2011 17:29:18

Same on OSX... if you're doing .Net/C# and want cross platform, if you are following MVC patterns, it's not too hard to maintain separate views for eac platform (Win, GTK, OSX)

That's what I've heard.. But the views are still separate code you'd need to maintain. If you use the wxWidgets library, you wouldn't have to do that - but there still can be minor code changes you'd need to make (for instance, the location of the "About" menu is typically in a different place in OS X vs. Windows).

Nightfox

Re: Re: Mac programming
By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Tue Feb 22 2011 17:33:20

as for BluRay, it's
because Apple doesn't have the DRM sony (studios) requires for bluray licens

That doesn't really speak well of Apple, IMO.. It makes me wonder why they don't have the DRM Sony requires, when other computer manufacturers obviously do.

Mostly, but you can always plugin a USB keyboard/mouse, and in the pro's you

That's true.. But I wouldn't want to carry around a separate keyboard with me with my laptop.

I think the lack of blu-ray is a crock of sh*t myself.

I agree. I don't understand why Apple hasn't provided support for blu-ray yet. I'm sure there is probably some 3rd-party software you can install on OS X to play blu-ray, and then you'd just have to put a blu-ray drive in the machine, as you said, but I imagine blu-ray drives for Apple laptops are probably hard to come by and hard to install - so in that case, you'd probably be SOL.

The blu-ray thing is just one of the things about Apple computers that frustrates me.. I like OS X, but there's almost always something that puts me off to the idea of using a Mac as my main machine - usually lack of some feature or configuration option.

Nightfox

Re: Re: Mac programming
By: Tracker1 to Access Denied on Tue Feb 22 2011 17:37:02

Yeah, there is a premium no doubt.. but they do put a bit more oomph into th hardware...

Apple isn't the only computer company that puts more oompth into their machines - You can certainly custom-configure a high-end machine from other manufacturers. I've seen Dell provide a configurator on their web site for when you order one of their laptops, and there is (or at least used to be) Alienware, which made high-end machines for gaming and such.

Nightfox

Re: Re: Mac programming
By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Tue Feb 22 2011 17:38:50

I almost always switch my GTK theme (on windows) so that it's at least close to native look/feel... wouldn't know if/how to get more themes, so I could

Are you refering to GTK apps, or are you using Gnome+XFree in Windows (via Cygwin or something)?

I think it would be pretty cool to have a Windows-native version of the Gnome desktop - basically as a replacement for the Windows shell.

Nightfox

Re: Re: Mac programming
By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Tue Feb 22 2011 17:40:38

The only real shortcoming to wxWidgets, is those pieces that don't have cross-platform equivalents simply don't exist in wx... it's least common denominator, so some UI features are much harder to implement.

I know that's true of some pieces, but I seem to remember reading in the wxWidgets docs that where there is a widget that doesn't exist on all platforms, they try to implement it in wxWidgets so you can still use it.

There's a wx + javascript application set even...

That's interesting.. I wonder how you'd use wxWidgets with JavaScript, or why you'd want/need to - I suppose you'd want something like that to write stand-alone apps with JavaScript, similar to Perl or Python..

Nightfox

Re: Re: Mac programming
By: Tracker1 to Access Denied on Tue Feb 22 2011 05:37 pm

Yeah, there is a premium no doubt.. but they do put a bit more oomph into th hardware... aluminum cases are cool.. I run a PC desktop, only went mac on the laptop as Dell pissed me off, and they now don't seem to have a comparab laptop (formerly Adamo).

Dell is to laptops as Rosie O'donnell and Roseanne Barr is to lesbianism. It's just not right. :)

axisd

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■ Synchronet ■ thePharcyde_ >> telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin)

Re: Re: Mac programming
By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Tue Feb 22 2011 17:28:04

OpenStep is a published standard, which MacOS X follows(and writes the standard). GNUStep follows it pretty well, though the nib files are not standardised. The only major difference between writing GNUStep software and OS X software is the GUI designer files. Current versions of Apple GUI designer use an xml intermediate, I don#t know if the GNUStep people have started using it or not.

[]-[]-[]
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|RedNight@};-


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■ Synchronet ■ [ENT] CHEMICAL REACTION BBS WHQ * FAiRLiGHT AMiGA NZHQ * FOOD WHQ [ENT]

Nightfox wrote:

as for BluRay, it's
because Apple doesn't have the DRM sony (studios) requires for bluray licens

That doesn't really speak well of Apple, IMO.. It makes me wonder why they don't have the DRM Sony requires, when other computer manufacturers obviously do.

Aside from Microsoft, nobody really does... It's the HDCP stuff that's in Windows that allows it... Apple would have to add a bunch of DRM to OSX in order to even do the stuff iirc... Linux doesn't support encrypted blu-ray either.

Mostly, but you can always plugin a USB keyboard/mouse, and in the pro's you

That's true.. But I wouldn't want to carry around a separate keyboard with me
with my laptop.

Fair enough.. I've thought about it though.

I think the lack of blu-ray is a crock of sh*t myself.

I agree. I don't understand why Apple hasn't provided support for blu-ray yet.
I'm sure there is probably some 3rd-party software you can install on OS X to play blu-ray, and then you'd just have to put a blu-ray drive in the machine, as you said, but I imagine blu-ray drives for Apple laptops are probably hard to come by and hard to install - so in that case, you'd probably be SOL.

The blu-ray thing is just one of the things about Apple computers that frustrates me.. I like OS X, but there's almost always something that puts me
off to the idea of using a Mac as my main machine - usually lack of some feature or configuration option.

Dunno... Blu-Ray support really isn't high on my own list of priorities though.

--
Michael J. Ryan - http://tracker1.info/

... B5: Now, landing thrusters.. landing thrusters, hmm.

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■ Synchronet ■ Roughneck BBS - telnet://roughneckbbs.com - www.roughneckbbs.com

Nightfox wrote:

Yeah, there is a premium no doubt.. but they do put a bit more oomph into th >> hardware...

Apple isn't the only computer company that puts more oompth into their machines
- You can certainly custom-configure a high-end machine from other manufacturers. I've seen Dell provide a configurator on their web site for when you order one of their laptops, and there is (or at least used to be) Alienware, which made high-end machines for gaming and such.

Okay, find me a laptop vendor that provides an all-metal case for their laptops, and has the venting so that it isn't blocked/venting on the bottom/sides, where you're likely to set it down, or hold it. Also, another vendor with any quick/release plug would be nice... There really isn't a good competing laptop out there that compares on the thought into the enclosure alone for them.

Desktops, not a huge fan of mac desktops, at least not much over a PC... with desktops I can get nice aluminum cases etc. Laptops, not a fan of cheap feeling plastic. Some better than others.. I like Lenovo okay, and some aren't bad until you've used them a year, and they start really wearing in.

I will say SSD on a laptop is a must... my mbp boots in about 8 seconds (to a working desktop).

--
Michael J. Ryan - http://tracker1.info/

... Immortality is my short-term goal.

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■ Synchronet ■ Roughneck BBS - telnet://roughneckbbs.com - www.roughneckbbs.com

Nightfox wrote:

I almost always switch my GTK theme (on windows) so that it's at least close >> to native look/feel... wouldn't know if/how to get more themes, so I could

Are you refering to GTK apps, or are you using Gnome+XFree in Windows (via Cygwin or something)?

I think it would be pretty cool to have a Windows-native version of the Gnome desktop - basically as a replacement for the Windows shell.

GTK, there's a theme switcher when you install a windows GTK+ app, usually... but the ones that come with kind of all suck, or look alien, and never looked at installing other themes.

--
Michael J. Ryan - http://tracker1.info/

... FRA #041: Profit is its own reward.

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■ Synchronet ■ Roughneck BBS - telnet://roughneckbbs.com - www.roughneckbbs.com

Nightfox wrote:

The only real shortcoming to wxWidgets, is those pieces that don't have
cross-platform equivalents simply don't exist in wx... it's least common
denominator, so some UI features are much harder to implement.

I know that's true of some pieces, but I seem to remember reading in the wxWidgets docs that where there is a widget that doesn't exist on all platforms, they try to implement it in wxWidgets so you can still use it.

I'm just saying there's a few short comings, it's a fairly nice toolkit...

There's a wx + javascript application set even...

That's interesting.. I wonder how you'd use wxWidgets with JavaScript, or why
you'd want/need to - I suppose you'd want something like that to write stand-alone apps with JavaScript, similar to Perl or Python..

exactly, it's along the lines of python/perl/ruby + wx, but with javascript. I've been following a lot of the nodejs stuff with great interest. Though the GLUEscript (wx + javascript) uses spidermonkey's JS engine, it's still pretty cool. May even be a decent option for a portable version of the Synchronet operator UI.

--
Michael J. Ryan - http://tracker1.info/

... FRA #075: Home is where the heart is ... but the stars are made of latinum.

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■ Synchronet ■ Roughneck BBS - telnet://roughneckbbs.com - www.roughneckbbs.com

Re: Re: Mac programming
By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Fri Feb 25 2011 04:56 pm

Nightfox wrote:

The only real shortcoming to wxWidgets, is those pieces that don't have >> cross-platform equivalents simply don't exist in wx... it's least common >> denominator, so some UI features are much harder to implement.

I know that's true of some pieces, but I seem to remember reading in the wxWidgets docs that where there is a widget that doesn't exist on all platforms, they try to implement it in wxWidgets so you can still use it.

I'm just saying there's a few short comings, it's a fairly nice toolkit...

There's a wx + javascript application set even...

That's interesting.. I wonder how you'd use wxWidgets with JavaScript, or you'd want/need to - I suppose you'd want something like that to write stand-alone apps with JavaScript, similar to Perl or Python..

exactly, it's along the lines of python/perl/ruby + wx, but with javascript. I've been following a lot of the nodejs stuff with great interest. Though t GLUEscript (wx + javascript) uses spidermonkey's JS engine, it's still prett cool. May even be a decent option for a portable version of the Synchronet operator UI.

--
Michael J. Ryan - http://tracker1.info/

... FRA #075: Home is where the heart is ... but the stars are made of latin

I prefer jumbo jack programming myself.

"Practise safe Lunch, Use a Condiment"


---
■ Synchronet ■ Three Stooges Gentlemens Club - Las Vegas, Nv - tsgc.dyndns.org

Re: Re: Mac programming
By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Fri Feb 25 2011 16:46:41

That doesn't really speak well of Apple, IMO.. It makes me wonder why the don't have the DRM Sony requires, when other computer manufacturers obviou do.

Aside from Microsoft, nobody really does... It's the HDCP stuff that's in Windows that allows it... Apple would have to add a bunch of DRM to OSX in order to even do the stuff iirc... Linux doesn't support encrypted blu-ray e

I suppose that's true enough.. But I also was thinking of the hardware - You can get a computer that includes a blu-ray drive from many manufacturers (last year, for instance, I bought a Sony laptop that has a blu-ray drive), but Apple doesn't offer a blu-ray drive in any of their machines.

Dunno... Blu-Ray support really isn't high on my own list of priorities thou

It's not really a high priority for me either, but my point is that Apple doesn't even give you the choice to have a blu-ray drive. I think it would be nice if Apple offered more choice of hardware options for their machines.

Nightfox

Re: Re: Mac programming
By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Fri Feb 25 2011 16:50:45

Okay, find me a laptop vendor that provides an all-metal case for their laptops, and has the venting so that it isn't blocked/venting on the

I'm not sure what the big advantage is of an all-metal case. Apple seems to tout that as one of their selling points, but I don't see what the big deal
is. They also seem to make a big point of their newer machines using "unibody" cases - Again, I'm not sure I see the big deal that the case is all one piece.

I will say SSD on a laptop is a must... my mbp boots in about 8 seconds (to working desktop).

I think that's pretty cool.. I have yet to try an SSD, because they're still more expensive. I also seem to remember reading somewhere that SSDs were still quite a bit slower than regular hard drives to be considered a suitable replacement for a regular hard drive, but it sounds like that isn't true anymore.

Nightfox

Re: Re: Mac programming
By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Fri Feb 25 2011 16:51:39

I think it would be pretty cool to have a Windows-native version of the Gn desktop - basically as a replacement for the Windows shell.

GTK, there's a theme switcher when you install a windows GTK+ app, usually.. but the ones that come with kind of all suck, or look alien, and never looke at installing other themes.

It's not just the Gnome themes I like, but the features too. One thing I use all the time in Gnome is its multiple desktops. I've seen multi-desktop managers for Windows, but they don't seem to work quite as well. There was one that I had tried for Windows, where it was quite obvious that all it was doing was keeping lists of apps that you want to see on each desktop, and when you clicked on a different desktop icon, it would minimize all the apps from the first desktop and show the apps on the other desktop, and you could still see every app's button on the taskbar at the bottom of the screen.

Nightfox

Re: Re: Mac programming
By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Fri Feb 25 2011 16:56:45

cool. May even be a decent option for a portable version of the Synchronet operator UI.

I've often thought it might be nice to be able to write stand-alone apps with JavaScript. BBS apps could possibly be written that way with Synchronet's JavaScript API.

Nightfox

Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Nightfox to Tracker1 on Sat Feb 26 2011 01:11 am

It's not really a high priority for me either, but my point is that Apple doesn't even give you the choice to have a blu-ray drive. I think it would nice if Apple offered more choice of hardware options for their machines.

They just don't care, which means the demand isn't big enough, and even if it was, I don't think they would care either. BluRay still isn't a popular storage medium, but I'm guessing once recordable discs and drives drop in proce considerably and the market grows, Apple won't be able to ignore it like they do now.

At least that's what I think of their approach. Not being abble to watch BluRay movies on a Mac is another thing entirely.

|12|24- |48|15Morden


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■ Synchronet ■ Masquerade BBS - http://www.masqueradebbs.com

Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Morden to Nightfox on Sat Feb 26 2011 07:55:15

medium, but I'm guessing once recordable discs and drives drop in proce considerably and the market grows, Apple won't be able to ignore it like the do now.

The already aren't that expensive, IMO. You can buy a blu-ray burner for less than $100 (see http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827136181 as an example), and recordable blu-ray discs for around $3. And that's for recordable media; if you can buy a blu-ray burner for under $100, I imagine a reader would be even less.

At least that's what I think of their approach. Not being abble to watch Blu movies on a Mac is another thing entirely.

Yeah, I find it a little hard to believe that there is no software at all for OS X that would let you watch a blu-ray movie, even a third-party app.

Nightfox

Re: Re: Mac programming
By: Nightfox to Tracker1 on Sat Feb 26 2011 01:16 am

I will say SSD on a laptop is a must... my mbp boots in about 8 seconds (to working desktop).

I think that's pretty cool.. I have yet to try an SSD, because they're still more expensive. I also seem to remember reading somewhere that SSDs were still quite a bit slower than regular hard drives to be considered a suitable replacement for a regular hard drive, but it sounds like that
isn't true anymore.

Why bother with SSD if you're wanting fast bootups? Linux allready has
versions made to instal into a portion of the BIOS EEPROM, such that when
you flip the switch it's nearly instantly into linux. Combining that with
a RAM Disk, having the portion in EEPROM immediatetly copy the most used
files and setup /var/temp/ to the ram disk, would significantly speed up
the operating system once it's booted.


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■ Synchronet ■ Roach Guts - roachguts.com

Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Morden to Nightfox on Sat Feb 26 2011 07:55 am

It's not really a high priority for me either, but my point is that
Apple doesn't even give you the choice to have a blu-ray drive. I think it would nice if Apple offered more choice of hardware options for their machines.

They just don't care, which means the demand isn't big enough, and even if it was, I don't think they would care either. BluRay still isn't a popular storage medium, but I'm guessing once recordable discs and drives drop in proce considerably and the market grows, Apple won't be able to ignore it like they do now.

You have to understand Apple. It's only one reason I rather not support
them in any way, shape, or form. I had an ibook when Apple wasn't popular.
Back, when you couldn't get much software for Apple, they had huge
advantages. But as they became popular, something clicked in their head and
said "I much copy Microsoft!" As that happened, I liked Apple less and
less. Their iPhones are in a way a lot like their computers. They'd be
great devices if they didn't put so many limits on them. By not giving the
option of using memory cards, once you exceed the capicity of the hard
drive, your only option is to sell your phone and buy one with a bigger
hard drive. No buying a spare battery with this phone either, it takes
a trained technician to be able to change the battery out. Heck, Apple even
had to go so far as to use Intel CPU's in their computers to be as much
to throw it all away.sible. They had a market that worked, but they had


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■ Synchronet ■ Roach Guts - roachguts.com

Re: Re: Mac programming
By: John Guillory to Nightfox on Sat Feb 26 2011 14:53:56

Why bother with SSD if you're wanting fast bootups? Linux allready has
versions made to instal into a portion of the BIOS EEPROM, such that when
you flip the switch it's nearly instantly into linux. Combining that wit
a RAM Disk, having the portion in EEPROM immediatetly copy the most used
files and setup /var/temp/ to the ram disk, would significantly speed up
the operating system once it's booted.

I didn't know that was possible.. I thought the BIOS chip was read-only. Would that require special hardware? And if so, why not just go with a SSD?

Nightfox

Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: John Guillory to Morden on Sat Feb 26 2011 15:13:47

less. Their iPhones are in a way a lot like their computers. They'd be
great devices if they didn't put so many limits on them. By not giving t
option of using memory cards, once you exceed the capicity of the hard
drive, your only option is to sell your phone and buy one with a bigger
hard drive. No buying a spare battery with this phone either, it takes
a trained technician to be able to change the battery out.

I totally agree. The limitations that Apple puts into their devices is one thing I don't like about them.

a trained technician to be able to change the battery out. Heck, Apple e
had to go so far as to use Intel CPU's in their computers to be as much
to throw it all away.sible.

I actually don't mind that Apple is using Intel CPUs in their Macs now. Most of the world's home computers use Intel CPUs, and being able to run Intel software (including Windows) at native speed, I think, is an advantage.

Nightfox

Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Nightfox to Morden on Sat Feb 26 2011 11:02 am

The already aren't that expensive, IMO. You can buy a blu-ray burner for le than $100 (see http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168271361 as an example), and recordable blu-ray discs for around $3. And that's for recordable media; if you can buy a blu-ray burner for under $100, I imagine reader would be even less.

I guess I haven't been checking the prices in a while. You're right. Those prices aren't that bad. The fact still remains that BluRay is yet to become a popular storage medium for private use.

I don't even own a Mac, but I read that you can record BluRay discs just fine using the USB drives and Toast. Also, Macs seem to be able to play HD-DVD movies just fine, which is pretty much irrelevant both in this discussion and in 2011, but it caught my eye in some article.

|12|24- |48|15Morden


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■ Synchronet ■ Masquerade BBS - http://www.masqueradebbs.com

Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Nightfox to John Guillory on Sat Feb 26 2011 05:05 pm

I totally agree. The limitations that Apple puts into their devices is one thing I don't like about them.

Then we all agree. And that's exactly why I'll get an Android phone once I feel it's time to switch to something better. I'm still using my old Nokia N73. It's a decent smartphone, Symbian S60v3, good camera, I don't need more. There's a line I draw at some point when it comes to phones. People seem to want more and moreout of their phones, but for me the phone part, some games I can play to pass time while on the train and some simple apps are enough. Plus the camera.

I'm actually kind of excited about Xperia Play from Sony Ericsson. I was a fan of N-Gage QD. The fact that it was a massive commercial failure made it possible to buy a really decent smartphone for cheap. The QD fixed the issues from the original design and was, quite frankly, a really good phone. I feel that Xperia Play might be the QD of 2011.

|12|24- |48|15Morden


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■ Synchronet ■ Masquerade BBS - http://www.masqueradebbs.com

Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Morden to Nightfox on Sun Feb 27 2011 03:56:40

prices aren't that bad. The fact still remains that BluRay is yet to become popular storage medium for private use.

I don't even own a Mac, but I read that you can record BluRay discs just fin using the USB drives and Toast. Also, Macs seem to be able to play HD-DVD

Yeah, I suppose an external burner wouldn't be bad. I think it's nice to have an internal drive though.

Anyway, my point with blu-ray and Macs wasn't for blu-ray itself, just that Apple doesn't seem to give many options for its computers, and it would be nice if they did. A numeric keypad in their laptops would be nice, IMO.

I don't use a Mac either, myself, and the lack of choices is one reason why.

Nightfox

Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Morden to Nightfox on Sun Feb 27 2011 04:06:21

I don't need more. There's
line I draw at some point when it comes to phones. People seem to want more moreout of their phones, but for me the phone part, some games I can play to pass time while on the train and some simple apps are enough. Plus the camer

That's also how I've tended to feel about cell phones. I don't even have a smartphone - I have a fairly basic cell phone, and it does what I need it to do (actually be a phone, and send/receive text messages). I wouldn't mind having a smartphone though.. One reason I don't have a smartphone, though, is that they usually require a data plan from the phone company, which is more expensive, and if it's not something I'll use much, I'm not sure I want to spend the extra money each month. I have heard of some smartphones that can use wi-fi if you don't have a data plan, and that wouldn't be so bad.

I'm actually kind of excited about Xperia Play from Sony Ericsson. I was a f of N-Gage QD. The fact that it was a massive commercial failure made it possible to buy a really decent smartphone for cheap. The QD fixed the issue

That's interesting - I know someone who recently bought a Sony Ericsson Xperia X8 and seems to like the phone. It looked like a pretty good phone - I wonder how similar/different that one is to the Xperia Play.

Nightfox

Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Nightfox to Morden on Sun Feb 27 2011 04:07 pm

Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Morden to Nightfox on Sun Feb 27 2011 03:56:40

prices aren't that bad. The fact still remains that BluRay is yet to beco popular storage medium for private use.

I don't even own a Mac, but I read that you can record BluRay discs just using the USB drives and Toast. Also, Macs seem to be able to play HD-DVD

Yeah, I suppose an external burner wouldn't be bad. I think it's nice to ha an internal drive though.

Anyway, my point with blu-ray and Macs wasn't for blu-ray itself, just that Apple doesn't seem to give many options for its computers, and it would be n if they did. A numeric keypad in their laptops would be nice, IMO.

I don't use a Mac either, myself, and the lack of choices is one reason why.

Nightfox

at sea world I saw a girl programming a sting ray.
she would wave the fish around and it would follow.

"Practise safe Lunch, Use a Condiment"


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■ Synchronet ■ Three Stooges Gentlemens Club - Las Vegas, Nv - tsgc.dyndns.org

Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Nightfox to Morden on Sun Feb 27 2011 04:07 pm

I don't use a Mac either, myself, and the lack of choices is one reason why.

The price is a turn off as well, if you ask me. It feels like you have to pay extra, just because it's a Mac. It has become this designer gadget, which bothers me a lot. Before iPod, no one wanted Macs and now, all of a sudden, they've become this profit hungry, cocky company, selling the "cool" stuff. And people buy it.

|12|24- |48|15Morden


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■ Synchronet ■ Masquerade BBS - http://www.masqueradebbs.com

Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Nightfox to Morden on Sun Feb 27 2011 04:12 pm

That's interesting - I know someone who recently bought a Sony Ericsson Xper X8 and seems to like the phone. It looked like a pretty good phone - I wond how similar/different that one is to the Xperia Play.

I'm guessing that Xperia Play is really similar to other phones in the series. The main difference is that instead of having a slide-out keypad, it has the PlayStation style controller. It also has a multi-touch screen. The fact that it's an Android phone makes it automatically so much better than the iPhone.

Newer Xperia phones have enough processing power to emulate PlayStation, so if it's games you're looking for, you'll get enough just through emulation. From what I've seen, Android has a ton of emulators and cool programs, so that takes care of games.

I'm curious how the text input works, though. They've probably adapted one of the PSP solutions, plus there's always the on-screen keyboard.

As for WiFi, I guess most phones have it by now. Especially the Windows Mobile and Android ones, so that's good. Xperia Play has it, too.

|12|24- |48|15Morden


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■ Synchronet ■ Masquerade BBS - http://www.masqueradebbs.com

Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Morden to Nightfox on Mon Feb 28 2011 01:52:38

The price is a turn off as well, if you ask me. It feels like you have to pa extra, just because it's a Mac. It has become this designer gadget, which

I feel the same way. I'm not sure exactly what you get for the money, besides just that it's a Mac. And I would consider Apple a partial monopoly - They're the only company that makes computers that can (officially) run OS X - an OS which they also make. And I think that is one reason they charge more for their computers.

bothers me a lot. Before iPod, no one wanted Macs and now, all of a sudden, they've become this profit hungry, cocky company, selling the "cool" stuff.

Their increase in sales seemed to start with the original iMac in 1998, which I believe came before the iPod. But even if I personally don't prefer their computers, I think it's cool that they're doing well. And what company isn't out to do well financially?

Nightfox

Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Morden to Nightfox on Mon Feb 28 2011 02:07:58

That's interesting - I know someone who recently bought a Sony Ericsson X X8 and seems to like the phone. It looked like a pretty good phone - I w how similar/different that one is to the Xperia Play.

Newer Xperia phones have enough processing power to emulate PlayStation, so it's games you're looking for, you'll get enough just through emulation. Fro

Gaming isn't really what I'm after in a cell phone, but I'm curious how that PlayStation emulation works.. How do you read PlayStation games on the phone? Is there a CD-ROM drive made for the phone that you can plug into it? I haven't seen anything like that.

As for WiFi, I guess most phones have it by now. Especially the Windows Mobi and Android ones, so that's good. Xperia Play has it, too.

That's good to know.

Nightfox

Re: Cell phones
By: Nightfox to Morden on Mon Feb 28 2011 09:06 am

Gaming isn't really what I'm after in a cell phone, but I'm curious how that PlayStation emulation works.. How do you read PlayStation games on the phon Is there a CD-ROM drive made for the phone that you can plug into it? I haven't seen anything like that.

I've seen videos on YouTube showing the first PlayStation being emulated on an Xperia phone at near perfect speed. The emulation works just as it does on computers, or so I imagine. All you need is a game image in *.ISO format, you point the emulator to where it is, and you're set.

Emulators, like ePSXe, can run game discs directly from the CD drive, but they can run images in various formats or separate binaries (which comes in handy if you're testing some code, but don't want to waste a CD or play with sending the data over the serial cable, for which you'd need comms link anyway).

So, just like with PSP, when it comes to PSX games, all you need is the game image and the emulator. There's a ton of emulators for Android. MegaDrive, Super Nintendo, NES, you name it. All you need is ROMs.


|12|24- |48|15Morden


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■ Synchronet ■ Masquerade BBS - http://www.masqueradebbs.com

Re: Cell phones
By: Morden to Nightfox on Mon Feb 28 2011 13:47:39

I've seen videos on YouTube showing the first PlayStation being emulated on Xperia phone at near perfect speed. The emulation works just as it does on computers, or so I imagine. All you need is a game image in *.ISO format, yo point the emulator to where it is, and you're set.

So, just like with PSP, when it comes to PSX games, all you need is the game image and the emulator. There's a ton of emulators for Android. MegaDrive, Super Nintendo, NES, you name it. All you need is ROMs.

That's cool.. Makes me want to get an Android phone even more. :P

Nightfox

Morden wrote to Nightfox <=-

The price is a turn off as well, if you ask me. It feels like you have
to pay extra, just because it's a Mac. It has become this designer
gadget, which bothers me a lot. Before iPod, no one wanted Macs and
now, all of a sudden, they've become this profit hungry, cocky company, selling the "cool" stuff. And people buy it.

I do have to admit that Macs can be pricey, but you get a nice machine for your money. I've been a Unix guy since 1995 but only started using desktop Unix in 2004 when I got my first Mac.

There is an element of "ooh shiny" to a lot of Mac buyers, but there are solid, fundamental technical reasons to use a Mac. For me it's an extension of one of the coolest platforms ever, NEXTSTEP and this keeps me on the platform (I never did rate the classic MacOS in the least, pile of crap in my opinion).

Everything Unixy works more or less out of the box, the desktop experience is miles ahead of anything Linux and I get Microsoft Office for corporate stuff.

For eveything else there's VMWare :)

Finally, the system just seems to get less "broken" with time compared to any Windows boxes I've ever used..I've moved my family members (in another country)

onto Macs and they complain 10x less about computer problems - and remote management is a doddle.

Sampsa


... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
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Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Nightfox to Morden on Mon Feb 28 2011 09:03 am

Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Morden to Nightfox on Mon Feb 28 2011 01:52:38

The price is a turn off as well, if you ask me. It feels like you have to extra, just because it's a Mac. It has become this designer gadget, which

I feel the same way. I'm not sure exactly what you get for the money, besid just that it's a Mac. And I would consider Apple a partial monopoly - They' the only company that makes computers that can (officially) run OS X - an OS which they also make. And I think that is one reason they charge more for their computers.

Back when they were based on the Motorola processors, and probably custom chipset as well as their custom OS, I could see paying a little more. Supposedly, you were getting a more stable, more multimedia oriented system.

Now that they're using what amounts to off-the-shelf parts, they're closer to being just a brand. Having never used a Mac, I can't speak to the stability
of the OS. Possibly it's more stable, since they don't have to worry about
the vast array of devices, like Windows/Linux.

If that's the case, they could probably do better by dropping the price and promoting that. :P

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Re: Cell phones
By: Nightfox to Morden on Mon Feb 28 2011 09:06 am

Newer Xperia phones have enough processing power to emulate PlayStation, it's games you're looking for, you'll get enough just through emulation.

Gaming isn't really what I'm after in a cell phone, but I'm curious how that PlayStation emulation works.. How do you read PlayStation games on the phon Is there a CD-ROM drive made for the phone that you can plug into it? I haven't seen anything like that.

Probably the same way I play NES/Playstation games: download the ROMs :)

I bought a NES-style USB gamepad so I can get my Mario fix. lol


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Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Dreamer to Nightfox on Mon Feb 28 2011 18:40:00

Back when they were based on the Motorola processors, and probably custom chipset as well as their custom OS, I could see paying a little more.

Now that they're using what amounts to off-the-shelf parts, they're closer t being just a brand.

Yeah, when they were using Motorola processors, they were unique, but even then, I don't think their machines would have necessarily been any more stable than a PC. Any company could build a computer using the CPU and other parts they choose; Apple just happened to choose Motorola CPUs. And I haven't used Macs a whole lot, but I've heard that the classic Mac OS (up to and including version 9) could be easily crashed, and I think it was even still using cooperative multi-tasking up through OS 9.

of the OS. Possibly it's more stable, since they don't have to worry about the vast array of devices, like Windows/Linux.

Apple fanboys still tend to say that Macs are more stable than PCs, due to the parts Apple puts in their Macs, but I think any PC maker could also make good choices for their components to build a stable computer. That's one thing I've enjoyed about building my own PC - Getting to choose all the parts, and being able to make educated decisions to choose quality parts. It seems to me that unfortunately, PC makers such as Dell, HP, etc. tend to skimp on some of the parts here and there. As an example, I bought an HP machine a couple years ago (the first desktop PC I've owned that I didn't build myself), and the video card they had put in it had a fan that started vibrating fairly loudly after a couple months. Fortunately, it was a common enough problem that HP replaced the card at no cost to me. HP sent me a replacement video card via FedEx and also paid for shipping for the old card as well as the new card.

Also, it's not necessarily the OS developer that has to deal with the drivers for the hardware. The hardware manufacturer is the one who makes the drivers for their hardware. People often tend to blame Microsoft/Windows itself for being unstable due to the vast amount of hardware available, when I think the ones to blame are the hardware manufacturers for providing unstable drivers. So if you just choose quality parts from known-good manufacturers, you should have a system that's nice and stable. Apple seems to make fairly good hardware choices, so their machines are fairly stable. Plus they use an OS that's derived from a form of UNIX, which I imagine certainly helps a bit..

If that's the case, they could probably do better by dropping the price and promoting that. :P

I agree. If they want more marketshare, they certainly would be more competitive if they lowered the price.

I once read an article online where someone made an interesting analogy. He compared Macintosh computers to BMW cars. BMW doesn't have huge marketshare, but their cars are above-par in quality and prestige, and they are priced that way, and BMW is doing well as a company; he said Apple is similar in that they don't necessarily want large marketshare, and they're fine with producing "premium" computers that sell at a higher price than other computers do.

Nightfox

Re: Cell phones
By: Dreamer to Nightfox on Mon Feb 28 2011 18:43:00

Gaming isn't really what I'm after in a cell phone, but I'm curious how t PlayStation emulation works.. How do you read PlayStation games on the p Is there a CD-ROM drive made for the phone that you can plug into it? I haven't seen anything like that.

Probably the same way I play NES/Playstation games: download the ROMs :)

PlayStation ROMs would be fairly big in comparison, since they're distributed on CD-ROM. :) You'd have to have a fairly large storage device in your phone to store some PlayStation games. Most smartphones have only around 8GB-64GB of storage, I believe, and you wouldn't be able to store that many PlayStation games in that amount of space..

I bought a NES-style USB gamepad so I can get my Mario fix. lol

hehe :) I've seen some of those. I've even seen some USB-NES adapters that will let you plug in a real NES gamepad into a USB port (and others for the various other console controllers too).

Nightfox

Re: Cell phones
By: Nightfox to Morden on Mon Feb 28 2011 05:05 pm

That's cool.. Makes me want to get an Android phone even more. :P

I've seen emulators for various game platforms. NES, Sega, etc. are really easy toget roms for via an app on the market. What first sorta turned me on to android phones was the fact that normally you don't have the issues with the iPhone. The Backflip I have by AT&T is unfortiantly one of the few phones with an Android OS that is jailed by AT&T! Otherwise, Google provides complete source code to the operating system, and basically your running linux on your phone. Anything you can do on linux, you can pretty much do on your phone. With that in mind, I learned when I setup my phone, they had all kinds of accounts I could create e-mail with.... Many I didn't see before, so I created an account with them... I setup every account I could, weather I used them or not, just so it'd remember it for me... Let me tell you, checking all those e-mail accounts, updating all those social networks, etc. bogged down my phone big time! I couldn't make phone calls because it was waiting so much.... Now that I removed it, it works better now. But that's something that I believe is also a feature of most androids.... From what I can tell... On the iPhone, you just get this big list of icons to do everything... Equivilent to hitting the little circle at the bottom center of the screen, or pressing the middle button on my phone. I have about 5 desktop screens where I can drag widgets and icons to... I have a widget for "Whats happening" that shows all my social networks events... See what your friends post on facebook, myspace, twitter, bebo, skyrock.... And another for incoming e-mails.... Then a widget I used to put up to tell you the weather... Didn't use it much, may put it back up... I also keep a shortcut to my mom's dialing directory, so I can call her by just touching on the screen. I've yet to see an iPhone have a way of laying out shortcut's and widgets on the screen like that... Theirs is kind of like your allways in a menu with the list of applications.... Granted, from what I read, you can create links to web pages by hitting the + on Safari and saving it to their desktop or whatever.... But just another way that Android kicks iPhone's butt! Android can create a shortcut to any bookmark just as easy...



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Re: Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Sampsa to Morden on Mon Feb 28 2011 06:20 pm

of one of the coolest platforms ever, NEXTSTEP and this keeps me on the platform (I never did rate the classic MacOS in the least, pile of crap in my opinion).

Strange, I considered anything beyond Mac OS 9 a piece of junk! Personally,
I loved 8.6, 9 was cool, and OS X and beyond just tried too hard to clone
Microsoft Windows.



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■ Synchronet ■ Roach Guts - roachguts.com

Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Nightfox to Dreamer on Mon Feb 28 2011 09:10 pm

Apple fanboys still tend to say that Macs are more stable than PCs, due to the parts Apple puts in their Macs, but I think any PC maker could also
make good choices for their components to build a stable computer. That's one thing I've enjoyed about building my own PC - Getting to choose all the parts, and being able to make educated decisions to choose quality parts.
It seems to me that unfortunately, PC makers such as Dell, HP, etc. tend to skimp on some of the parts here and there. As an example, I bought an HP

Yup, I used to get a kick out of folks that didn't have a clue about
computers... They'd often claim "I bought a mac because I'm an 'artist', and
the best computers for artist are macs"

I'd say "Or really?" let's see... You look at the graphics cards available
to macs... Every one of them is offered for Mac or IBM... Most will work
in either machine as is, without any change, as compared to the remainder
of graphic cards that work only in IBM, so how does this make it better for
Artist? I guess the lack of options makes it easier on them.... Next, they
claim mac's have the best software, and tout about Adobe Illustrator for the
Mac... O.k. again, available for Windows! As well as Corel Draw, which
in my opinion is better, and now I personally prefer Xara Poto & Graphics,
which lets you do everything Illustrator and Corel Draw does, but adds
3D, Shading, and some nice effects for manipulating photographs. So again,
I am to assume that Macs are Excellent for artist because they don't get
you as much choice in selection, so your just stuck with learning what you
have and restricted to paying the high price of upgrades to the only
company that sells software. Similiar problems for programmers...
Write your own software? Pay bigbucks for Code Warrior or Real Studio,
rather than thousands of shareware and freeware compilers for windows.



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■ Synchronet ■ Roach Guts - roachguts.com

Re: Cell phones
By: John Guillory to Nightfox on Mon Feb 28 2011 23:27:56

touching on the screen. I've yet to see an iPhone have a way of laying out shortcut's and widgets on the screen like that... Theirs is kind of like you allways in a menu with the list of applications.... Granted, from what I re you can create links to web pages by hitting the + on Safari and saving it t their desktop or whatever.... But just another way that Android kicks iPhon butt! Android can create a shortcut to any bookmark just as easy...

The Android platform certainly sounds like it kicks butt. And it's interesting to see all the things that Linux is being used for (thanks, Linus Torvalds). :) Open software really helps people do wonders..

Nightfox

Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: John Guillory to Nightfox on Mon Feb 28 2011 23:43:10

Yup, I used to get a kick out of folks that didn't have a clue about
computers... They'd often claim "I bought a mac because I'm an 'artist', a
the best computers for artist are macs"

I'd say "Or really?" let's see... You look at the graphics cards availabl
to macs... Every one of them is offered for Mac or IBM... Most will work
in either machine as is, without any change, as compared to the remainder
of graphic cards that work only in IBM, so how does this make it better fo

That's true, excellent graphics cards have been available for PCs for a very long time, and there is perhaps even greater choice for PCs than there are for Macs, because of the open nature of PCs and the large PC gamer market.

Artist? I guess the lack of options makes it easier on them.... Next, th
claim mac's have the best software, and tout about Adobe Illustrator for t
Mac... O.k. again, available for Windows! As well as Corel Draw, which

So true.. I think the reason people still believe Macs are "better for artists" is probably historical - The Mac was one of the first publicly-available computer with a GUI, so apps written for the Mac had that in mind and tended to be more WYSIWIG from the start, back when IBM PCs still used DOS and most PC apps were available as text-based DOS applications. Back then, it probably would have made total sense to say Macs are better for artists, but now, most companies have realized that most people use a Windows PC, so that's what they target if they want to make serious money with their software.

Much of the 3D rendering & animation software I'm aware of (3D Studio Max, Maya, etc.) is also available for Windows, and perhaps only for Windows.. I'm not aware of Mac versions of those programs - but I could be wrong. I've even heard of Linux versions of those programs (I heard the 3D scenes in the 1997 movie 'Titanic' were done in Linux).

Perhaps one reason some people still prefer Mac software is that there seems to be a different mindset with Mac developers and Mac users. Most Mac people seem to be really mindful of the user interface and user experience - which seems a little odd to me, because there are some things about OS X's user interface that actually bug me quite a bit - For instance, if you want to resize a window, the only place on a window you can click & drag to resize it is the lower-right corner, whereas in Windows, you can click & drag any corner to resize it. I've also gotten used to the Quick Launch bar in Windows and find it quite useful; OS X doesn't have an equivalent to Windows' Quick Launch bar. Its dock is similar but not quite the same.

I've also heard people say that the Amiga was really good for art and video processing. I heard that at the time, Amiga's computers had very advanced video hardware, and I've heard of a video editing program for the Amiga called Video Toaster (I think), which sounds like Amiga's "killer app".

Nightfox

Re: Cell phones
By: Nightfox to Dreamer on Mon Feb 28 2011 09:13 pm

PlayStation ROMs would be fairly big in comparison, since they're distribute on CD-ROM. :) You'd have to have a fairly large storage device in your pho to store some PlayStation games. Most smartphones have only around 8GB-64GB storage, I believe, and you wouldn't be able to store that many PlayStation games in that amount of space..

Not all games use the whole CD, so it's not like every game will take those 650+ megs. Also, PSX emulation on PSP can use both regular and compressed images (CSO - compressed ISO), which always saves some space. I don't know if the Android emulator makes use of the compression, but it would be logical for it to do so.

Also, how many PlayStation games would you like to have with you at all times? If you want casuals, there's always the whole MegaDrive / SNES / NES library.

|12|24- |48|15Morden


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■ Synchronet ■ Masquerade BBS - http://www.masqueradebbs.com

Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: John Guillory to Nightfox on Mon Feb 28 2011 11:43 pm

Yup, I used to get a kick out of folks that didn't have a clue about
computers... They'd often claim "I bought a mac because I'm an 'artist', a
the best computers for artist are macs"

This kind of reminds me of people, who pirate Photoshop just because they believe it's the only proper program for photo editing. Then they do some simple adjustments and apply stupid filter effects, or create some text that looks like WordArt. As if they couldn't have done it using GIMP or whatever else.

|12|24- |48|15Morden


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■ Synchronet ■ Masquerade BBS - http://www.masqueradebbs.com

Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Nightfox to John Guillory on Mon Feb 28 2011 10:24 pm

I've also heard people say that the Amiga was really good for art and video processing. I heard that at the time, Amiga's computers had very advanced video hardware, and I've heard of a video editing program for the Amiga call Video Toaster (I think), which sounds like Amiga's "killer app".

Back in the day, Amiga was a great all-in-one multimedia solution. With PCs you had to get your VGA / SVGA card, your SoundBlaster and all that. Sound cards, especially the SB clones, were always a bitch to configure, while on Amiga everything just worked.

If you wanted to create things using your computer, Amiga was the weapon of choie, no doubt.







|12|24- |48|15Morden


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■ Synchronet ■ Masquerade BBS - http://www.masqueradebbs.com

Re: Cell phones
By: Morden to Nightfox on Tue Mar 01 2011 02:45:48

650+ megs. Also, PSX emulation on PSP can use both regular and compressed images (CSO - compressed ISO), which always saves some space. I don't know i the Android emulator makes use of the compression, but it would be logical f it to do so.

I had a PSP once, and I didn't realize they had that much space to store images that size.

It would be pretty cool to have an emulator on my phone and be able to play all those old games. :) I once had an iPod Touch and had a NES and Genesis emulator on it, but I didn't really like playing the games much without physical buttons - I like the tactile feedback, which you lack using the touch screen.

Nightfox

Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Morden to Nightfox on Tue Mar 01 2011 03:43:18

Back in the day, Amiga was a great all-in-one multimedia solution. With PCs had to get your VGA / SVGA card, your SoundBlaster and all that. Sound cards especially the SB clones, were always a bitch to configure, while on Amiga everything just worked.

I had a PC with a VGA card and a Sound Blaster once, and I don't remember them being all that hard to configure. Sure, there were jumpers you had to set, but I didn't think that was a big deal.. But I suppose if things just worked (as on the Amiga), that would be nice. I never did use Amigas, except just a couple times, and only briefly to play some games.

Speaking of Amigas, I've heard AmigaOS is still alive and being developed, although I haven't seen any Amiga computers being sold in a long time..

Nightfox

Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Morden to Nightfox on Tue Mar 01 2011 03:43 am

If you wanted to create things using your computer, Amiga was the weapon of choie, no doubt.

Yup, it was also awesome at gaming. We owned one in the late 80s, and it rocked! An A500 w/ 1mb memory, one floppy drive, Motorola 68000 processor. What drove the multimedia was the custom graphics and sound chips; back then, most of the processing in DOS & Windows was done in the main cpu, but Amiga
was designed from the ground up to do as much processing as possible
off-chip.


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■ Synchronet ■ Southeast Texas BBS -- setxbbs.synchro.net

Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Dreamer to Morden on Tue Mar 01 2011 13:40:00

What drove the multimedia was the custom graphics and sound chips; back then most of the processing in DOS & Windows was done in the main cpu, but Amiga was designed from the ground up to do as much processing as possible off-chip.

Yeah, it's best when things are done in hardware rather than software.. It eases the burden on the software quite a bit.

And it seems to me that even for Windows PCs, things that used to be done in hardware are more commonly done in software these days. For instance, sound cards for PCs in the early-mid 90s, did quite a bit in the hardware, but audio chipsets on PC motherboards has commonly been fairly basic and software-based for a long time. Also, many dialup modems started to become more software-based, with the rise of WinModems and such. I've also heard that ethernet interfaces on many PC motherboards often rely on software to do what they do.

At least there are still options for sound cards and network cards that handle things mostly in hardware rather than software..

Nightfox

Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Nightfox to Morden on Tue Mar 01 2011 11:36 am

I had a PC with a VGA card and a Sound Blaster once, and I don't remember th being all that hard to configure. Sure, there were jumpers you had to set, I didn't think that was a big deal.. But I suppose if things just worked (a on the Amiga), that would be nice. I never did use Amigas, except just a couple times, and only briefly to play some games.

Problems back then arose when you had lots of expansion cards; there were
only so many IRQ lines to go around. Occasionally two cards would even have address conflicts, I think. It was a real pain if you had to install more
than one new internal card in those days..

Plus, you have to remember the graphics back then. At the time the Amiga
was first released, Windows v1 was just being released.

Speaking of Amigas, I've heard AmigaOS is still alive and being developed, although I haven't seen any Amiga computers being sold in a long time..

Yes, a company called Hyperion is maintaining the OS. There are a few manufacturers making compatible hardware, and once in a while someone manages to snag a license to sell a machine under the Amiga brand name.

Newer compatible machines are typically PowerPC based now.

Most companies selling true Amiga hardware and software are based in Europe, where there's more demand for the brand. Interestingly, over here in the US (Florida, I think) there's an upstart company who's designed and trying to
sell under the Commodore and Amiga brands systems that look remarkably
similar to the Commodore and Amiga computers, utilizing the same form
factors, but running with Intel hardware. I think they boot Linux and
AmigaOS is emulated.

In any case, the Amiga brand is not dead. It was set back a lot by CBM's demise and the subsequent legal battles over the IP, but I understand the
legal issues have been settled, so we should hear more in the future.

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Re: Cell phones
By: Nightfox to Morden on Tue Mar 01 2011 11:33 am

I had a PSP once, and I didn't realize they had that much space to store ima that size.

I have a 4GB memory stick, and it's enough to carry around those few games you really want to have with you. Plus, I have a couple emulators and homebrew games, and that's more than enough to choose from when I feel like playing something.

As for iPhone / iPod Touch controls, they're one of the reasons why I never wanted that kind of device, whereas Xperia Play seems to be a perfect combination of an iPhone and a handheld gaming console.

There are many retro conversions available for the iPhone, but people often complin about unresponsive controls. The on-screen emulation just doesn't cut it in fast paced games like Gunstar Heroes, etc. With Xperia Play's PlayStation style controls, the problem is solved.

|12|24- |48|15Morden


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■ Synchronet ■ Masquerade BBS - http://www.masqueradebbs.com

Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Nightfox to Morden on Tue Mar 01 2011 11:36 am

on the Amiga), that would be nice. I never did use Amigas, except just a couple times, and only briefly to play some games.

Speaking of Amigas, I've heard AmigaOS is still alive and being developed, although I haven't seen any Amiga computers being sold in a long time..

Games were another thing that just worked on Amiga. Floppy in, game boots. Easy as 1-2-3. Not that games on PC didn't work. As for Amiga computers, check out MiniMig, which is a FPGA Amiga 500 re-implementation. Also, NatAmi seems to be a very interesting project.

|12|24- |48|15Morden


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■ Synchronet ■ Masquerade BBS - http://www.masqueradebbs.com

Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Dreamer to Nightfox on Tue Mar 01 2011 22:36:00

Problems back then arose when you had lots of expansion cards; there were only so many IRQ lines to go around. Occasionally two cards would even have address conflicts, I think. It was a real pain if you had to install more than one new internal card in those days..

I remember those issues.. Seems like other computers would probably have similar issues, depending on how they were designed.

where there's more demand for the brand. Interestingly, over here in the US (Florida, I think) there's an upstart company who's designed and trying to sell under the Commodore and Amiga brands systems that look remarkably similar to the Commodore and Amiga computers, utilizing the same form factors, but running with Intel hardware. I think they boot Linux and AmigaOS is emulated.

Yeah, I've seen it on this web site:
http://www.commodoreusa.net/CUSA_C64.aspx
It looks like they supposedly have 2 new products: A computer with the same appearance as the original Commodore 64 but with an Intel CPU and modern ports, and another all-in-keyboard computer that looks more like a modern keyboard. I actually think it looks pretty cool, and I wouldn't mind having a computer like that - It would save a lot of desk space.

Nightfox

Re: Cell phones
By: Morden to Nightfox on Wed Mar 02 2011 01:35:07

As for iPhone / iPod Touch controls, they're one of the reasons why I never wanted that kind of device, whereas Xperia Play seems to be a perfect combination of an iPhone and a handheld gaming console.

There are many retro conversions available for the iPhone, but people often complin about unresponsive controls. The on-screen emulation just doesn't cu it in fast paced games like Gunstar Heroes, etc. With Xperia Play's PlayStat style controls, the problem is solved.

The Android platform just keeps looking more and more attractive.. :)

Nightfox

Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Morden to Nightfox on Wed Mar 02 2011 01:54:26

Games were another thing that just worked on Amiga. Floppy in, game boots. E as 1-2-3. Not that games on PC didn't work.

Back in the day, I also saw some PC games where you had to boot from their floppy disk to play them - from what I understand, they did that as a type of copy-protection (the disk was usually in a weird format, so DOS etc. wouldn't be able to read it). I thought it was a little extreme to have to reboot the computer to play a game, and then reboot once you're done. In these days, with multi-tasking OSes, that wouldn't fly..

As for Amiga computers, check ou
MiniMig, which is a FPGA Amiga 500 re-implementation. Also, NatAmi seems to a very interesting project.

Those do look interesting. The NatAmi motherboards look like they are ATX-compatible, too..

Nightfox

Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Nightfox to Dreamer on Wed Mar 02 2011 12:00 am

And it seems to me that even for Windows PCs, things that used to be done in hardware are more commonly done in software these days. For instance, sound cards for PCs in the early-mid 90s, did quite a bit in the hardware, but aud chipsets on PC motherboards has commonly been fairly basic and software-base for a long time. Also, many dialup modems started to become more software-based, with the rise of WinModems and such. I've also heard that ethernet interfaces on many PC motherboards often rely on software to do wha they do.

It makes sense for those smaller devices to push a lot into the drivers.
The things they do have such a light footprint, you'd never notice the difference between software and hardware processing.

On the other hand, hundreds of Linux users are at this moment cursing their Windows only hardware as they test Linux for the first time... ;)

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Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Nightfox to Morden on Wed Mar 02 2011 04:02 am

Back in the day, I also saw some PC games where you had to boot from their floppy disk to play them - from what I understand, they did that as a type o copy-protection (the disk was usually in a weird format, so DOS etc. wouldn' be able to read it). I thought it was a little extreme to have to reboot th computer to play a game, and then reboot once you're done. In these days, w multi-tasking OSes, that wouldn't fly..

The only reason for it was that the game assumed total, complete control of
the hardware. The Amiga was a very open system, which is why it had such
great games.

If you drop the overhead of layers of the various OS calls and have direct access to the CPU, FPU, MMU, GPU, etc... you could design a game that REALLY flies. I hadn't realized there were any PC games in the past that ran directly, but I am surprised no one's bothered trying recently.

Speaking of old gaming, Duke Nukem Forever just popped into my head. It's supposed to be shipping out this year by a new developer. Anyone think something might fall apart on it again? I'm betting it'll actually make it, finally.

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Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Dreamer to Nightfox on Wed Mar 02 2011 18:10:00

It makes sense for those smaller devices to push a lot into the drivers. The things they do have such a light footprint, you'd never notice the difference between software and hardware processing.

That may be true these days, although I still feel like it's better to do things in hardware than in the driver. For something like a sound card, it might be splitting hairs these days, but I still like the feeling of knowing I'm probably gaining a speed advantage. I remember reading somewhere not too long ago that die-hard PC gamers opt for hardware-based network cards and sound cards so they can take that processing off the CPU, making their computer faster overall.

On the other hand, hundreds of Linux users are at this moment cursing their Windows only hardware as they test Linux for the first time... ;)

:) That's one reason I think it's better to do things in hardware.. When things are done in hardware, then the drivers become simpler to develop, and there's a better chance of having good, usable drivers for all platforms.

Nightfox

Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Dreamer to Nightfox on Wed Mar 02 2011 18:20:00

The only reason for it was that the game assumed total, complete control of the hardware. The Amiga was a very open system, which is why it had such great games.

If you drop the overhead of layers of the various OS calls and have direct access to the CPU, FPU, MMU, GPU, etc... you could design a game that REALLY flies.

I believe DOS (on PCs) pretty much provided apps to take complete control of the system if they wanted to. DOS did provide a small layer of APIs, but I believe apps still had the option of doing everything directly if they wanted to.

I hadn't realized there were any PC games in the past that ran
directly, but I am surprised no one's bothered trying recently.

Back in the day, I seem to remember at least one or two games for the PC that did that - I think the PC version of Marble Madness was one. These days, I think it's easier and faster (and thus more cost-effective) for companies to develop games using the OS's indirect APIs rather than make games that take direct control of the computer. One advantage provided by an OS like Windows is that it provided standard graphics calls (among other things) so that game developers didn't have to develop their own set of drivers to work with various different video cards; and then, different game developers might make different sets of drivers, so a game might or might not work with your particular video card.

Speaking of old gaming, Duke Nukem Forever just popped into my head. It's supposed to be shipping out this year by a new developer. Anyone think something might fall apart on it again? I'm betting it'll actually make it, finally.

I heard that their release date is definite now. I've been waiting for Duke Nukem Forever for a long time. Too bad I hardly play games much anymore.. I would have enjoyed playing it back when I was still more into PC gaming and had more time for it.

Duke Nukem 3D was one of my favorite games back in the day.. I liked playing it multi-player against people, as well as designing my own levels for it - It had the easiest level designer program I had seen for any 3D shooter game.

Nightfox

Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Nightfox to Dreamer on Wed Mar 02 2011 10:50 pm

Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Dreamer to Nightfox on Wed Mar 02 2011 18:20:00

The only reason for it was that the game assumed total, complete control the hardware. The Amiga was a very open system, which is why it had such great games.

If you drop the overhead of layers of the various OS calls and have direc access to the CPU, FPU, MMU, GPU, etc... you could design a game that REA flies.

I believe DOS (on PCs) pretty much provided apps to take complete control of the system if they wanted to. DOS did provide a small layer of APIs, but I believe apps still had the option of doing everything directly if they wante to.

I hadn't realized there were any PC games in the past that ran
directly, but I am surprised no one's bothered trying recently.

Back in the day, I seem to remember at least one or two games for the PC tha did that - I think the PC version of Marble Madness was one. These days, I think it's easier and faster (and thus more cost-effective) for companies to develop games using the OS's indirect APIs rather than make games that take direct control of the computer. One advantage provided by an OS like Window is that it provided standard graphics calls (among other things) so that gam developers didn't have to develop their own set of drivers to work with vari different video cards; and then, different game developers might make differ sets of drivers, so a game might or might not work with your particular vide card.

Speaking of old gaming, Duke Nukem Forever just popped into my head. It' supposed to be shipping out this year by a new developer. Anyone think something might fall apart on it again? I'm betting it'll actually make finally.

I heard that their release date is definite now. I've been waiting for Duke Nukem Forever for a long time. Too bad I hardly play games much anymore.. would have enjoyed playing it back when I was still more into PC gaming and more time for it.

Duke Nukem 3D was one of my favorite games back in the day.. I liked playin it multi-player against people, as well as designing my own levels for it - had the easiest level designer program I had seen for any 3D shooter game.

Nightfox

I loved Shadow Warrior. I think it was the last game built in the build engine. You want some wang?
/w
[A


"Practise safe Lunch, Use a Condiment"


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Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Corey to Nightfox on Thu Mar 03 2011 09:51:11

I loved Shadow Warrior. I think it was the last game built in the build engi You want some wang?

Shadow Warrior was one of my favorite games too. Was funny.. :)

Nightfox

Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Nightfox to Corey on Thu Mar 03 2011 07:21 pm

Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Corey to Nightfox on Thu Mar 03 2011 09:51:11

I loved Shadow Warrior. I think it was the last game built in the build e You want some wang?

Shadow Warrior was one of my favorite games too. Was funny.. :)

Nightfox

I bought it and they gave the source code out also.
I hate Watcom C++

"Practise safe Lunch, Use a Condiment"


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Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Corey to Nightfox on Thu Mar 03 2011 20:01:46

Shadow Warrior was one of my favorite games too. Was funny.. :)

I bought it and they gave the source code out also.

Really? I didn't know they were giving out the source code. That would be interesting to see.

I hate Watcom C++

I recently tried Watcom C++ because I wanted to compile one of my utilities for DOS, and it seems like a decent compiler.. It seems to be one of the few compilers (or only compiler) that compiles modern C++ for DOS. I did have to make a couple tweaks to my code to get it to compile for DOS (I originally compiled it for Win32), but the changes were fairly minor.

Nightfox

Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Nightfox to Corey on Thu Mar 03 2011 08:58 pm

Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Corey to Nightfox on Thu Mar 03 2011 20:01:46

Shadow Warrior was one of my favorite games too. Was funny.. :)

I bought it and they gave the source code out also.

Really? I didn't know they were giving out the source code. That would be interesting to see.

I hate Watcom C++

I recently tried Watcom C++ because I wanted to compile one of my utilities DOS, and it seems like a decent compiler.. It seems to be one of the few compilers (or only compiler) that compiles modern C++ for DOS. I did have t make a couple tweaks to my code to get it to compile for DOS (I originally compiled it for Win32), but the changes were fairly minor.

Nightfox

give me your email and I'll send your the shadow warrior source code.

"Practise safe Lunch, Use a Condiment"


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Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Nightfox to John Guillory on Mon Feb 28 2011 10:24 pm

So true.. I think the reason people still believe Macs are "better for artists" is probably historical - The Mac was one of the first publicly-available computer with a GUI, so apps written for the Mac had
that in mind and tended to be more WYSIWIG from the start, back when IBM

I once fell in love with Macs, and loved it pretty much for the sole reason
that very few people had a Mac. Same reason I once loved Linux, back before
the 1.0.0 kernel was even released.... Back when you had to install it from
30-40 1.44mb disk ... Back then few people ran Mac software, translated
kiddies didn't waste time writing viruses. The few people who wrote
software found writing software they could sell was more profitable!
Now, Mac and Linux both are designed to look more and more like Windows.
Sure, there's minor differences in the Gui, but look closely at how they
all have some form of button in the bottom left corner that opens up a
window to launch programs from... They all have a status bar with
a list of programs running, etc. They all try to tell you where to keep
your documents. Nothing's changed really.


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Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: John Guillory to Nightfox on Tue Mar 01 2011 03:31 pm

I once fell in love with Macs, and loved it pretty much for the sole reas
that very few people had a Mac. Same reason I once loved Linux, back bef
the 1.0.0 kernel was even released.... Back when you had to install it fr
30-40 1.44mb disk ... Back then few people ran Mac software, translated
kiddies didn't waste time writing viruses. The few people who wrote
software found writing software they could sell was more profitable!
Now, Mac and Linux both are designed to look more and more like Windows.
Sure, there's minor differences in the Gui, but look closely at how they
all have some form of button in the bottom left corner that opens up a
window to launch programs from... They all have a status bar with
a list of programs running, etc. They all try to tell you where to keep
your documents. Nothing's changed really.

I would have to strongly believe that those decisions were based on user input. People probably want one point where they can launch everything from. On the other hand.. I use fluxbox, so I right click anywhere on my wallpaper (no matter which of the 4 workspaces I'm using) and get a nice list/menu that I've set up myself. From there anything can be ran. I only need a GUI to do 15 things at once when I feel like it. 4 consoles just isn't enough sometimes. :)

axisd

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Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: John Guillory to Nightfox on Tue Mar 01 2011 15:31:26

Now, Mac and Linux both are designed to look more and more like Windows.
Sure, there's minor differences in the Gui, but look closely at how they
all have some form of button in the bottom left corner that opens up a
window to launch programs from... They all have a status bar with
a list of programs running, etc. They all try to tell you where to keep
your documents. Nothing's changed really.

I think those are common elements in a GUI that people have come to expect, similar to how people expect to steer a car with a steering wheel (and all cars have one). I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

For a long time now, though, I have enjoyed trying different operating systems to see what ideas people have come up with. In the late 90s, I thought BeOS seemed really promising. And, at one point in the late 90s, I had 4 OSes installed on my computer (Windows, OS/2, Linux, and BeOS), along with a boot menu. :P

Recently I've thought about switching to Linux as my primary OS (from Windows), but all the software I've gotten used to using is Windows software, and there aren't good Linux equivalents for some of it - so I'm not sure if it's worth switching at this point. I can always run Linux in a virtual machine if I want or need to run it. I do have Linux set up in a virtual machine, which makes it really convenient to use (I don't have to reboot into Linux; I just run the virtual machine).

Nightfox

Speaking of Amigas, I've heard AmigaOS is still alive and being developed, ->although I haven't seen any Amiga computers being sold in a long time..

This is true, granted you pretty much have to run it with an emulator these days on today's computers.



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Re: RE:Macs and blu-ray
By: Robert Wolfe to NIGHTFOX on Fri Mar 04 2011 09:21:00

Speaking of Amigas, I've heard AmigaOS is still alive and being developed, ->although I haven't seen any Amiga computers being sold in a long time..

This is true, granted you pretty much have to run it with an emulator these days on today's computers.

It seems odd that they'd still be developing an OS that needs an emulator to run. I assumed the necessary hardware is also being produced by someone..

Nightfox

On 2/23/2011 11:19 PM, Rednight wrote:

OpenStep is a published standard, which MacOS X follows(and writes the standard). GNUStep follows it pretty well, though the nib files are not standardised. The only major difference between writing GNUStep software and OS X software is the GUI designer files. Current versions of Apple GUI designer use an xml intermediate, I don#t know if the GNUStep people have started using it or not.

GnuStep is what I was trying to remember..

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On 2/26/2011 2:16 AM, Nightfox wrote:

Okay, find me a laptop vendor that provides an all-metal case for their
laptops, and has the venting so that it isn't blocked/venting on the

I'm not sure what the big advantage is of an all-metal case. Apple seems to tout that as one of their selling points, but I don't see what the big deal is. They also seem to make a big point of their newer machines using "unibody"
cases - Again, I'm not sure I see the big deal that the case is all one piece.

All metal, and unibody are as much for style as anything... but it does work better for heat dissipation and unibody potentially means stronger... the venting design is much better, I can leave my mbp on a bed, or sofa upright, open and running without it overheating because the vents are blocked...

I will say SSD on a laptop is a must... my mbp boots in about 8 seconds (to >> working desktop).

I think that's pretty cool.. I have yet to try an SSD, because they're still more expensive. I also seem to remember reading somewhere that SSDs were still
quite a bit slower than regular hard drives to be considered a suitable replacement for a regular hard drive, but it sounds like that isn't true anymore.

At the speed of most USB drives, much slower... first gen SSDs had slower write speeds than really fast HDDs do... Current gen is much faster... This is the one I just popped into my desktop... http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820233160

My 80GB intel ssd from last year took a dump on me.. :( ordering a new one was faster than the RMA would be... but the old one is still under warranty, but a bit slower than the new one even.

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On 2/26/2011 2:20 AM, Nightfox wrote:

GTK, there's a theme switcher when you install a windows GTK+ app, usually..
but the ones that come with kind of all suck, or look alien, and never looke
at installing other themes.

It's not just the Gnome themes I like, but the features too. One thing I use all the time in Gnome is its multiple desktops. I've seen multi-desktop managers for Windows, but they don't seem to work quite as well. There was one
that I had tried for Windows, where it was quite obvious that all it was doing
was keeping lists of apps that you want to see on each desktop, and when you clicked on a different desktop icon, it would minimize all the apps from the first desktop and show the apps on the other desktop, and you could still see every app's button on the taskbar at the bottom of the screen.

Yeah, those are hit and miss.. I used to use an alternate UI for windows (LiteStep), but with win7, I prefer the actual UI that it comes with... I also use 2 monitors on my desktop at home and work... rarely miss virtual desktops... I don't know that mac has one native either.

I think win7's toolbar is much better than most other OSes I've used... it's like the OSX dock, and the xp/vista toolbar gave birth to an uber love-child...

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On 2/26/2011 2:21 AM, Nightfox wrote:

cool. May even be a decent option for a portable version of the Synchronet >> operator UI.

I've often thought it might be nice to be able to write stand-alone apps with JavaScript. BBS apps could possibly be written that way with Synchronet's JavaScript API.

Yeah... pretty much along the same lines as doing GUI with python... there's plenty out there, I happen to like JS better though.

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On 2/26/2011 12:02 PM, Nightfox wrote:

Yeah, I find it a little hard to believe that there is no software at all for OS X that would let you watch a blu-ray movie, even a third-party app.

Not that I know of... if you want to crack the case, you could replace the drive (though macbook drives are slot-fed... and mac pro's are too overpriced imho...

Is there a blueray playback software for linux event?

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On 2/26/2011 6:05 PM, Nightfox wrote:

I totally agree. The limitations that Apple puts into their devices is one thing I don't like about them.

Well, I don't own an iPod/iPad/iPhone either... the desktop OS is different... if they had that locked in the same regard (no macports etc), I'd have skipped it as the desktop OS...

a trained technician to be able to change the battery out. Heck, Apple e
had to go so far as to use Intel CPU's in their computers to be as much >> to throw it all away.sible.

I actually don't mind that Apple is using Intel CPUs in their Macs now. Most of the world's home computers use Intel CPUs, and being able to run Intel software (including Windows) at native speed, I think, is an advantage.

Other CPUs weren't keeping up on the single-thread apps... or just desktop performance apps in general... though ARM is interesting for either a cluster or mobile, desktop usage is a little different.

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On 2/28/2011 12:52 AM, Morden wrote:

I don't use a Mac either, myself, and the lack of choices is one reason why.

The price is a turn off as well, if you ask me. It feels like you have to pay extra, just because it's a Mac. It has become this designer gadget, which bothers me a lot. Before iPod, no one wanted Macs and now, all of a sudden, they've become this profit hungry, cocky company, selling the "cool" stuff. And
people buy it.

Point me to a comparable laptop to a 13" macbook pro... similar size, preferably all-metal case... preferably with a quick-release charger and no vents on the bottom of the case as well.

And I won't buy Sony... you think Apple and Microsoft are bad...

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On 2/28/2011 11:43 AM, Dreamer wrote:

I bought a NES-style USB gamepad so I can get my Mario fix. lol

If you like S/NES and Sega games....
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001M22WMO

Main point is it has 3x2 on the face, so sega games work.. good layout for NES and SNES games as well.. there are some USB Saturn clone controllers, but most are junk...

PlaySega.com gives out a saturn-style USB pad with a paid subscription...

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On 2/28/2011 2:10 PM, Nightfox wrote:

Apple fanboys still tend to say that Macs are more stable than PCs, due to the
parts Apple puts in their Macs, but I think any PC maker could also make good choices for their components to build a stable computer. That's one thing I've
enjoyed about building my own PC - Getting to choose all the parts, and being able to make educated decisions to choose quality parts.

I don't think they are really any more stable hardware wise than a good boutique PC vendor, but their support is decent, and they do have a high level of value at their price model... (though I agree desktop pricing is absurd and a bit overpriced short of their workstation comparable line.)

It seems to me that
unfortunately, PC makers such as Dell, HP, etc. tend to skimp on some of the parts here and there. As an example, I bought an HP machine a couple years ago
(the first desktop PC I've owned that I didn't build myself), and the video card they had put in it had a fan that started vibrating fairly loudly after a
couple months. Fortunately, it was a common enough problem that HP replaced the card at no cost to me. HP sent me a replacement video card via FedEx and also paid for shipping for the old card as well as the new card.

It's very common, they will price out as low as possible... it sucks a lot. Usually better to go for the business and workstation hardware if you're going through a major OEM.

Also, it's not necessarily the OS developer that has to deal with the drivers for the hardware. The hardware manufacturer is the one who makes the drivers for their hardware. People often tend to blame Microsoft/Windows itself for being unstable due to the vast amount of hardware available, when I think the ones to blame are the hardware manufacturers for providing unstable drivers.

I think that's the biggest reason Macs tend to be more stable.. much more limited hardware variations (at least for non-USB hardware)...

I agree. If they want more marketshare, they certainly would be more competitive if they lowered the price.

Not sure on that... they've got over 10% market share, and over 90% of laptop sales over $1k in price. If they decreased their pricing, they could potentially devalue their brand and make less overall. There's something to be said for fewer sales with higher margins...

I once read an article online where someone made an interesting analogy. He compared Macintosh computers to BMW cars. BMW doesn't have huge marketshare, but their cars are above-par in quality and prestige, and they are priced that
way, and BMW is doing well as a company; he said Apple is similar in that they
don't necessarily want large marketshare, and they're fine with producing "premium" computers that sell at a higher price than other computers do.

Exactly.

--
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On 2/28/2011 2:13 PM, Nightfox wrote:

PlayStation ROMs would be fairly big in comparison, since they're distributed on CD-ROM. :) You'd have to have a fairly large storage device in your phone
to store some PlayStation games. Most smartphones have only around 8GB-64GB of
storage, I believe, and you wouldn't be able to store that many PlayStation games in that amount of space..

just because a disc can hold 700MB, doesn't mean they used 700MB for every game.. ;)

hehe :) I've seen some of those. I've even seen some USB-NES adapters that will let you plug in a real NES gamepad into a USB port (and others for the various other console controllers too).

most of the aftermarket USB pads I've tried suck.. the fightpad (360/usb version) is about the best option currently, would prefer if they had a solid black matte finish over the street fighter IV characters though.

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On 2/28/2011 10:43 PM, John Guillory wrote:

Pay bigbucks for Code Warrior or Real Studio,
rather than thousands of shareware and freeware compilers for windows.

XCode is free... so are MonoDevelop, Eclipse and many others... at least as of OS-X. There are also quite a few free compilers for OS-X, and the tools available pretty much mirror any other Unix/Posix platform.

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On 2/28/2011 11:24 PM, Nightfox wrote:

I've also heard people say that the Amiga was really good for art and video processing. I heard that at the time, Amiga's computers had very advanced video hardware, and I've heard of a video editing program for the Amiga called
Video Toaster (I think), which sounds like Amiga's "killer app".

At that time mac and amiga had very similar hardware iirc. Though these days, it's all non-linear computer based editing... fewer inline and real-time effects.

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On 3/1/2011 2:08 AM, Morden wrote:

This kind of reminds me of people, who pirate Photoshop just because they believe it's the only proper program for photo editing. Then they do some simple adjustments and apply stupid filter effects, or create some text that looks like WordArt. As if they couldn't have done it using GIMP or whatever else.

Can't stand The GIMP... Paint.Net is my current fav... I really liked Paint Shop Pro, until after Corel bought Jasc out.. :(

Paint.Net
http://www.getpaint.net/

Pinta (Paint.Net clone, cross-platform)
http://pinta-project.com/

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Re: Re: Mac programming
By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Mon Mar 21 2011 00:50:32

use 2 monitors on my desktop at home and work... rarely miss virtual desktops... I don't know that mac has one native either.

I thought the Mac did - I've seen video clips of a spinning cube on the Mac, which I thought represented multiple desktops.

I think win7's toolbar is much better than most other OSes I've used... it's like the OSX dock, and the xp/vista toolbar gave birth to an uber love-child

The fact that it's like the OS X dock is why I don't like it.. I think the OS X dock looks nice, but functionally, I don't really like it that much. I've gotten used to the Windows QuickLaunch toolbar, and I really like that I can have a bunch of icons there for launching apps I use often. With the OS X dock and Win7 toolbar, the icons are so big that I can't fit nearly as many there as in the QuickLaunch toolbar; I also don't like that clicking those icons shows you a list of the current windows rather than launching a new instance.. I guess that's just the behavior I'm used to. I don't really understand why Microsoft decided to make such a drastic change to the Windows toolbar. At least the quick launch toolbar is still available in Win7.

Nightfox

Re: Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Mon Mar 21 2011 00:53:20

Is there a blueray playback software for linux event?

That's a good question, and I'm not sure.. It would seem odd to me if there isn't. But I've heard that the only reason there is DVD player software for Linux is because the software uses the cracked DVD CSS code which was not obtained legitimately - I find that hard to believe too.. Will someone have to illegally crack the blu-ray copy protection for blu-ray player software to be available in Linux? I wouldn't think it should have to be that way.

Nightfox

Re: Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Mon Mar 21 2011 01:15:02

I think that's the biggest reason Macs tend to be more stable.. much more limited hardware variations (at least for non-USB hardware)...

I'm not sure that makes Macs inherently more stable. A PC can be made fairly stable if the PC maker sticks to known good hardware (with good drivers).

I agree. If they want more marketshare, they certainly would be more competitive if they lowered the price.

Not sure on that... they've got over 10% market share, and over 90% of lapto sales over $1k in price. If they decreased their pricing, they could potentially devalue their brand and make less overall. There's something to be said for fewer sales with higher margins...

I'm surprised at that 90% figure. Lately I've certainly been seeing more Apple laptops around, but it still seems like most laptops I see are non-Apple - Not sure of the price of most of them though. And it seems to be mainly in the US where Apple is the most popular, but that's just a guess. I visited Brazil a couple times last year, and I noticed that Apple computers were *very* rare compared to PC computers - mainly because electronics are so much more expensive there, and Apple computers cost a lot more in the first place.

Nightfox

Re: Re: Cell phones
By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Mon Mar 21 2011 01:17:03

most of the aftermarket USB pads I've tried suck.. the fightpad (360/usb version) is about the best option currently, would prefer if they had a soli black matte finish over the street fighter IV characters though.

Yeah, one of my favorite "PC" gamepads is actually a PSX gamepad with a PSX-USB adapter.. ;)

Nightfox

On 03/21/2011 10:46 AM, Nightfox wrote:

guess that's just the behavior I'm used to. I don't really understand why Microsoft decided to make such a drastic change to the Windows toolbar. At least the quick launch toolbar is still available in Win7.

They have to make something visual change to sell the new version. Like
lets change the entire menu layout of Office 2003 and call it Office
2007. ;P

-Mindless Automaton
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Re: Re: OS stuff
By: Mindless Automaton to Nightfox on Mon Mar 21 2011 14:50:29

They have to make something visual change to sell the new version. Like lets change the entire menu layout of Office 2003 and call it Office
2007. ;P

:P That's true.. Although I heard the changes in Windows 7 were more behind the scenes than anything - they made it more efficient with memory and with the CPU, from what I heard, and I think that's worth an upgrade. I tend to prefer performance & functionality over a pretty UI.. I'm using Windows 7, but I've disabled the Aero themes, and I set up my taskbar with the quick launch menu so it works like earlier versions of Windows.

Nightfox

Re: Re: OS stuff
By: Mindless Automaton to Nightfox on Mon Mar 21 2011 02:50 pm

On 03/21/2011 10:46 AM, Nightfox wrote:

guess that's just the behavior I'm used to. I don't really understand why Microsoft decided to make such a drastic change to the Windows toolbar. A least the quick launch toolbar is still available in Win7.

They have to make something visual change to sell the new version. Like
lets change the entire menu layout of Office 2003 and call it Office
2007. ;P

Ugh, no kidding. Is there a way to roll back the look of the Office products to something more sane? (kinda like "Classic Theme" in XP)

I used OpenOffice for years, because I didn't want to pay for Microsoft Word. Office happened to come with a computer I picked up, and imagine my surprise the first time I used it. I couldn't figure out for a while how to even get
a template loaded...lol.

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Re: Re: OS stuff
By: Dreamer to Mindless Automaton on Mon Mar 21 2011 20:02:41

I used OpenOffice for years, because I didn't want to pay for Microsoft Word

I think OpenOffice is great, but I still worry about compatibility issues with MS Office, because that's what most people use. Also, at work, I recently started using Microsoft OneNote (which they've included in Office since around 2003), and I actually like it for taking notes - I'm not sure if OpenOffice has something equivalent.. Microsoft seems to have a way of keeping customers using their products that way..

Nightfox

Re: Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Nightfox to Tracker1 on Mon Mar 21 2011 07:49:33

Yes , someone will have to crack BlueRay for a Linux player to exist for it. The licenseing for BlueRay makes the midm90s DVD one look like it waswritten by a fairuse supporting saint.

The only way you canget a DVD player for Linux as it is legally is if you by
a closed source one. That's only possible becuase it was cracked, and they decided they would allow a license to non-mega-corps.

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Re: Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Rednight to Nightfox on Thu Mar 24 2011 18:43:45

The only way you canget a DVD player for Linux as it is legally is if you by a closed source one. That's only possible becuase it was cracked, and they decided they would allow a license to non-mega-corps.

If there is closed-source DVD player software for Linux, I'd think there would be closed-source blu-ray software for Linux too.

Re: Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Nightfox to Rednight on Thu Mar 24 2011 18:27:56

There is no Blue-Ray becuase the restrictions to license the codec and key
are absoutlely rediculous and extremely expensive. The MPAA can also jsut say to noto whomever they want. Until someone cracks it,they won't let up on
their restrictions on it.

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Re: Re: Macs and blu-ray
By: Rednight to Nightfox on Fri Mar 25 2011 16:48:23

There is no Blue-Ray becuase the restrictions to license the codec and key are absoutlely rediculous and extremely expensive. The MPAA can also jsut sa to noto whomever they want. Until someone cracks it,they won't let up on their restrictions on it.

That sucks.. :/

On 3/21/2011 7:46 AM, Nightfox wrote:

have a bunch of icons there for launching apps I use often. With the OS X dock
and Win7 toolbar, the icons are so big that I can't fit nearly as many there as
in the QuickLaunch toolbar; I also don't like that clicking those icons shows you a list of the current windows rather than launching a new instance.. I guess that's just the behavior I'm used to. I don't really understand why Microsoft decided to make such a drastic change to the Windows toolbar. At least the quick launch toolbar is still available in Win7.

You can adjust it to use "small icons"..

right-click an open space on the taskbar, then properties... check the box that says use small icons. I only wish if you had the taskbar docked on the left, that the portions on the bottom of the start menu (shutdown list, all programs, and searchbox) were at the top... that would be pretty natural for me.

Overall, it's still my fav... As for the size, on a 1920x1080 display you can get like 25+ apps on the taskbar... how many do you need there?

--
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On 3/21/2011 7:49 AM, Nightfox wrote:

Is there a blueray playback software for linux event?

That's a good question, and I'm not sure.. It would seem odd to me if there isn't. But I've heard that the only reason there is DVD player software for Linux is because the software uses the cracked DVD CSS code which was not obtained legitimately - I find that hard to believe too.. Will someone have to
illegally crack the blu-ray copy protection for blu-ray player software to be available in Linux? I wouldn't think it should have to be that way.

Blueray required HDCP connections (encrypted) and is designed to have the security keys updated, and breached keys revoked in new media... so it can be really hard, even if/when cracked... though the AnyDVD guys seem to be keeping up, but that's a windows program.

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On 3/21/2011 7:56 AM, Nightfox wrote:

Not sure on that... they've got over 10% market share, and over 90% of lapto >> sales over $1k in price. If they decreased their pricing, they could
potentially devalue their brand and make less overall. There's something to >> be said for fewer sales with higher margins...

I'm surprised at that 90% figure. Lately I've certainly been seeing more Apple
laptops around, but it still seems like most laptops I see are non-Apple - Not
sure of the price of most of them though.

90% of those over $1K in price, which pretty much all macbooks are.

And it seems to be mainly in the US
where Apple is the most popular, but that's just a guess. I visited Brazil a couple times last year, and I noticed that Apple computers were *very* rare compared to PC computers - mainly because electronics are so much more expensive there, and Apple computers cost a lot more in the first place.

True enough... and to be honest, I am not a big mac guy... I like the laptop hardware and feel you get a decent value out of it. Not a 1:1 increase in what you get for what you pay, but a BMW 3 series cost a lot more than a Ford eclipse, but you don't get 2-3x the car for that extra cash... same for a Macbook pro over a typical Acer/HP etc.

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On 3/21/2011 11:50 AM, Mindless Automaton wrote:

guess that's just the behavior I'm used to. I don't really understand why
Microsoft decided to make such a drastic change to the Windows toolbar. At >> least the quick launch toolbar is still available in Win7.

They have to make something visual change to sell the new version. Like lets change the entire menu layout of Office 2003 and call it Office 2007. ;P

They did do a *LOT* more than that.... they also firmed up their formats a lot, and released a very stable set of exposed APIs for automation and other programming hooks.

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On 3/23/2011 11:43 PM, Rednight wrote:

Yes , someone will have to crack BlueRay for a Linux player to exist for it. The licenseing for BlueRay makes the midm90s DVD one look like it waswritten by a fairuse supporting saint.

One of the many, many reasons I don't buy Sony products, and generally avoid them.

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On 3/24/2011 6:27 PM, Nightfox wrote:

The only way you canget a DVD player for Linux as it is legally is if you by >> a closed source one. That's only possible becuase it was cracked, and they >> decided they would allow a license to non-mega-corps.

If there is closed-source DVD player software for Linux, I'd think there would
be closed-source blu-ray software for Linux too.

Again, Linux, doesn't meet the HDCP requirements...

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Michael J. Ryan - http://tracker1.info/

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Re: Re: OS stuff
By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Tue Mar 29 2011 15:32:25

You can adjust it to use "small icons"..

right-click an open space on the taskbar, then properties... check the box that says use small icons. I only wish if you had the taskbar docked on the left, that the portions on the bottom of the start menu (shutdown list, all programs, and searchbox) were at the top... that would be pretty natural for

Still, I don't particularly care for the functionality of pinned app icons.. I prefer the QuickLaunch icons.

Overall, it's still my fav... As for the size, on a 1920x1080 display you c get like 25+ apps on the taskbar... how many do you need there?

I currently have 41 on my QuickLaunch toolbar.. hehe

On 3/29/2011 9:37 PM, Nightfox wrote:

Still, I don't particularly care for the functionality of pinned app icons.. I
prefer the QuickLaunch icons.

So you'd rather have a running application taking up 2+ spaces on your taskbar?

Overall, it's still my fav... As for the size, on a 1920x1080 display you c >> get like 25+ apps on the taskbar... how many do you need there?

I currently have 41 on my QuickLaunch toolbar.. hehe

I think you need to re-evaluate "need" ... at 41, it's not a quicklaunch toolbar of your most used apps, it's another start menu... at that, it would be faster to use the search box on the start menu.. I use that for most apps not pinned. start "comp" (click computer management) etc...

--
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Re: Re: OS stuff
By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Wed Mar 30 2011 09:05 am

On 3/29/2011 9:37 PM, Nightfox wrote:

Still, I don't particularly care for the functionality of pinned app icons prefer the QuickLaunch icons.

So you'd rather have a running application taking up 2+ spaces on your taskb

Overall, it's still my fav... As for the size, on a 1920x1080 display yo >> get like 25+ apps on the taskbar... how many do you need there?

I currently have 41 on my QuickLaunch toolbar.. hehe

I think you need to re-evaluate "need" ... at 41, it's not a quicklaunch toolbar of your most used apps, it's another start menu... at that, it would be faster to use the search box on the start menu.. I use that for most apps not pinned. start "comp" (click computer management) etc...

--
Michael J. Ryan - http://tracker1.info/

hmm, what time is it? I think I NEED lunch.

"Practise safe Lunch, Use a Condiment"


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On 3/29/2011 9:37 PM, Nightfox wrote:

Still, I don't particularly care for the functionality of pinned app icons.. I prefer the QuickLaunch icons.

So you'd rather have a running application taking up 2+ spaces on your taskbar?

It's not that I like having 2 spaces for a running application, it's the functionality of the QuickLaunch icons that I like. When I click one of the icons, I expect a new instance of the app to run. With a pinned application, when I click one of the icons, it just shows me the currently-running
instances if there are any. I don't like that.

I currently have 41 on my QuickLaunch toolbar.. hehe

I think you need to re-evaluate "need" ... at 41, it's not a quicklaunch toolbar of your most used apps, it's another start menu... at that, it
would be faster to use the search box on the start menu.. I use that for most apps not pinned. start "comp" (click computer management) etc...

I actually find the QuickLaunch toolbar faster for commonly-used applications.
Clicking the start button and doing a search would take longer. It's faster
to just go down and click an icon.

Nightfox

On 3/30/2011 12:59 PM, Nightfox wrote:

So you'd rather have a running application taking up 2+ spaces on your
taskbar?

It's not that I like having 2 spaces for a running application, it's the functionality of the QuickLaunch icons that I like. When I click one of the icons, I expect a new instance of the app to run. With a pinned application, when I click one of the icons, it just shows me the currently-running instances if there are any. I don't like that.

Try middle-click. ;)

I actually find the QuickLaunch toolbar faster for commonly-used applications.
Clicking the start button and doing a search would take longer. It's faster to just go down and click an icon.

dunno, usually can click start, type the first few chars of an app, and enter pretty quickly... faster than scanning 41 icons anyhow.

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Re: Re: OS stuff
By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Sat Apr 02 2011 12:52:18

functionality of the QuickLaunch icons that I like. When I click one of t icons, I expect a new instance of the app to run. With a pinned applicati when I click one of the icons, it just shows me the currently-running instances if there are any. I don't like that.

Try middle-click. ;)

Ah, I didn't know that. :) Good to know.

dunno, usually can click start, type the first few chars of an app, and ente pretty quickly... faster than scanning 41 icons anyhow.

I dunno, I guess for me it still seems faster to click one of those icons than to do the app search. :)

Nightfox

On 3/30/2011 12:59 PM, Nightfox wrote:

It's not that I like having 2 spaces for a running application, it's the functionality of the QuickLaunch icons that I like. When I click one of the icons, I expect a new instance of the app to run. With a pinned application, when I click one of the icons, it just shows me the currently-running instances if there are any. I don't like that.

Try middle-click. ;)

On a laptop with only 2 mouse buttons (as most laptops have), middle-click doesn't work as well.. It's possible, but most of the time only through some sort of work-around, I believe.

Nightfox

Re: Re: OS stuff
By: Nightfox to Tracker1 on Mon Apr 04 2011 01:16 pm

On a laptop with only 2 mouse buttons (as most laptops have), middle-click doesn't work as well.. It's possible, but most of the time only through some sort of work-around, I believe.

Well, get ready for using your alt-key and your left button. I just got the complete set of Borland Pascal 7 with Objects and all the manuels to go with it as well as the patches to write OS/2 software (and soon to be os/2 arriving) today. I played around with Turbo Vision today and with the time to spend on the manuals again, I'm starting to grow found of it again....



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On 4/2/2011 4:25 PM, Nightfox wrote:

dunno, usually can click start, type the first few chars of an app, and ente >> pretty quickly... faster than scanning 41 icons anyhow.

I dunno, I guess for me it still seems faster to click one of those icons than
to do the app search. :)

My hand's don't leave the keyboard (win-key, "notep", enter) for Notepad or (win-key, "comp", enter) for "Computer Management" ... only thing that irks me is UtraVNC doesn't come up for "vnc" because there's no space before VNC in the installed shortcuts... lol. I have about 7-10 apps permanently pinned to the taskbar at work I have my VS, Flex, etc... at home (explorer, chrome, thunderbird, pidgin, tweetdeck, xchat, and evernote)

Beyond that, I have a few apps, that I use less often pinned in the start menu (keepass, sql manager, filezilla, rdp, vnc) ... less than that, I don't pin them just type.

Oh yeah.. win+R works well to, which brings up the run prompt though the start menu search tends to work better for me.

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On 4/4/2011 1:16 PM, Nightfox wrote:

Try middle-click. ;)

On a laptop with only 2 mouse buttons (as most laptops have), middle-click doesn't work as well.. It's possible, but most of the time only through some sort of work-around, I believe.

It's usually simulated by clicking both buttons at once... I wish my mac had a three fingered tap for a middle-click...

you can right-click then click on the application name to launch another instance as well though.

My only wish is if you docked the taskbar on the left either the start button was at the bottom, or the start menu was re-arranged so that it's reversed from it's bottom of screen ordering... would prefer to have them on the left as I have dual-widescreens on my desktop and would rather have the extra vertical space... thinking of getting another screen and having my two current screens in portrait mode flanking a 3rd, larger screen.

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Re: Re: OS stuff
By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Sun Apr 17 2011 02:38:02

It's usually simulated by clicking both buttons at once...

That's what I thought, but I tried that on my work laptop recently, but it didn't do a middle-click.. I suppose there may be some settings you might need to configure or something though..

you can right-click then click on the application name to launch another instance as well though.

I've tried that too, but it seems that there are only a few applications that have an option to launch a new instance that way. It looks like Firefox does, but I haven't seen that option for many others.

My only wish is if you docked the taskbar on the left either the start butto was at the bottom, or the start menu was re-arranged so that it's reversed from it's bottom of screen ordering... would prefer to have them on the left as I have dual-widescreens on my desktop and would rather have the extra vertical space...

I was pretty sure Windows allowed moving the taskbar to the left or right side.. I've seen that done with Windows XP. You can also configure the taskbar to auto-hide so it only appears on the screen when you move the mouse to the bottom (or whatever edge of the screen you have the taskbar set up at).

Nightfox

On 4/17/2011 10:32 AM, Nightfox wrote:

My only wish is if you docked the taskbar on the left either the start butto >> was at the bottom, or the start menu was re-arranged so that it's reversed >> from it's bottom of screen ordering... would prefer to have them on the left >> as I have dual-widescreens on my desktop and would rather have the extra
vertical space...

I was pretty sure Windows allowed moving the taskbar to the left or right side.. I've seen that done with Windows XP. You can also configure the taskbar to auto-hide so it only appears on the screen when you move the mouse to the bottom (or whatever edge of the screen you have the taskbar set up at).

It does... but if you dock it on the left, and click the start button, the menu that comes up is oriented the exact same way as it is on the bottom... so you have to drag your mouse across all the shortcuts, etc to get the the "All Programs" list, or search box.

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I was pretty sure Windows allowed moving the taskbar to the left or right side.. I've seen that done with Windows XP. You can also configure the taskbar to auto-hide so it only appears on the screen when you move the mouse to the bottom (or whatever edge of the screen you have the taskbar set up at).

It does... but if you dock it on the left, and click the start button, the menu that comes up is oriented the exact same way as it is on the bottom... so you have to drag your mouse across all the shortcuts, etc to get the the "All Programs" list, or search box.

Ah.. I hadn't used it that way.

Nightfox

Re: RE:Macs and blu-ray
By: Robert Wolfe to NIGHTFOX on Fri Mar 04 2011 09:21:00

Speaking of Amigas, I've heard AmigaOS is still alive and being developed,
although I haven't seen any Amiga computers being sold in a long time..

This is true, granted you pretty much have to run it with an emulator these
days on today's computers.

It seems odd that they'd still be developing an OS that needs an emulator to N>run. I assumed the necessary hardware is also being produced by someone..

Unless they are making an x86 or x64 version of it now, too :)

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Re: RE:Macs and blu-ray
By: Warp 4 to Nightfox on Fri Mar 29 2013 09:35 pm

Re: RE:Macs and blu-ray
By: Robert Wolfe to NIGHTFOX on Fri Mar 04 2011 09:21:00

Speaking of Amigas, I've heard AmigaOS is still alive and being devel ->although I haven't seen any Amiga computers being sold in a long time

This is true, granted you pretty much have to run it with an emulator t days on today's computers.

It seems odd that they'd still be developing an OS that needs an emulator N>run. I assumed the necessary hardware is also being produced by someone..

Unless they are making an x86 or x64 version of it now, too :)

Yes, the necessary hardware is still being produced. It's PowerPC based. A good example is the X1000:

http://www.a-eon.com/x1000.html

FroggyMe

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Yes, the necessary hardware is still being produced. It's PowerPC b
good example is the X1000:

http://www.a-eon.com/x1000.html

I relaly wanted one of these, but even though i made great salary the
year it was released (Ahem, about 2 years later than it was promised to
be...) I still couldn't justify the >$2,000 USD cost for sub-par
hardware.

Personally I'm banking on Natami:

http://www.natami.net/

Unlike the X1000, it will actually be bit-for-cpu-instruction-byte
compatible with the amiga. The whole PPC Accellerator card evolution of
OS4 doesn't seem to be getting very far. It certainly doesn't have
enough market traction. I would expect in 5 years or so that X1000 is
still the last and only amiga os4-compatible machine, still expensive, procured from ebay, just like the genesis and other PPC-like systems
before it, and still 5-10 years behind in technology -- that is, you
won't have Ruby, Python, Flash, Java, etc., support out of the box like
you do with even a PPC-based macintosh, or the direction places like
MorphOS are going.
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