All of this talk about different desktop environments makes me realize that not having a stable desktop environment is a burden on everyone. Sure, I do not expect that everyone will rally around the same UI, but I do expect the ones that we pick to stop changing everything. I do not want to see changes in any of the following areas:

- Program locations
- Keyboard shortcuts
- Standard programs
- Menu items
- Window behavior
- Click/drag, click/rate, double/single-click or any mouse changes
- Toolbar icons
- Program switching

I know that I sound like an old fogey, but I want GUIs to be as consistent as the command line has been.

Just think how bad DOS would be if someone decided he wanted to change \ to /, or if the unix world decides that ln should swap the order of the arguments. I am not saying that I do not expect the environments to evolve over time--I like GNU utilities better than vanilla, but I do not want to see the whole thing ripped out every few years and replaced.

Give me a GUI that I can use for the next 30 years, and I will be happy.


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Re: GUI Environments
By: Folsom to All on Thu Aug 08 2013 16:35:08

I know that I sound like an old fogey, but I want GUIs to be as consistent as the command line has been.

Sometimes things need to change in order to improve, but overall I agree, I like things to be fairly consistent over the years as well. I liked classic Gnome and thought it worked well, so I don't particularly like the change they've made in the latest Gnome with the Unity interface.

I think the Mac OS X GUI has been fairly consistent over the years. Recently they've added a tablet-like interface, but the default is still the classic desktop interface. So I suppose Mac users have had the least trouble with a changing interface.

Nightfox

Re: GUI Environments
By: Folsom to All on Thu Aug 08 2013 16:35:08

Personally I always found / to be way more comfortable than \ . In fact, I can't even use DOS anymore because of that. Not to mention lack of decent command line completion.

As far as GUIs go, why not stick with a desktop manager? Windowmaker hasn't changed since I started using Linux over 10 years ago. Now that I think about it, all the desktop managers seem to remain consistent.

As long as you stay away from that Gnome/KDE crap, you shouldn't have a problem. And if there is, there's always TWM!

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Re: GUI Environments
By: S/370 to Folsom on Fri Aug 09 2013 04:22 am

As long as you stay away from that Gnome/KDE crap, you shouldn't have a problem. And if there is, there's always TWM!

I like that TWM has not changed in the last 20 years, but I do not like that it has not kept up with modern usage. Plus a window manager itself does not provide consistency of system operation, or encourage application consistency. TWM on my computer can be unusable to another TWM user.

Desktop environments are the right way to go. I want to login and see the same basic applications, with a program manager/menu in the same place, all using the same keyboard shortcuts every time. Not that it could happen now, but we need a Microsoft for the nix world.

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■ Synchronet ■ The X-BIT BBS * http://x-bit.org * http://x-bit.org/777.htm

Folsom wrote to All <=-

I do not want to see changes in any of the following areas:

- Window behavior

I wish my OSes could decide to put the window controls one side and stick
with it. After running with the controls on the right hand side for as long
as I've used GUIs I don't see a benefit to putting them on the left.



poindexter fortran | pfortran at realitycheckbbs dot org
| http://realitycheckbbs.org

... Make a sudden, destructive unpredictable action; incorporate
--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
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S/370 wrote to Folsom <=-

As long as you stay away from that Gnome/KDE crap, you shouldn't have a problem. And if there is, there's always TWM!

I started playing with Blackbox on a low (lowlowlow) memory VM I'm running. I'm starting to like it! right click pulls up a menu, no eye candy except
for a transparent Eterm...




... Accept advice
--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
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Poindexter Fortran wrote to Folsom <=-

Folsom wrote to All <=-

I do not want to see changes in any of the following areas:

- Window behavior

I wish my OSes could decide to put the window controls one side and
stick with it. After running with the controls on the right hand side
for as long as I've used GUIs I don't see a benefit to putting them on
the left.

I remember when they changed that. I "fixed" it the same day. LOL


--- MultiMail/Linux v0.49
■ Synchronet ■ Southeast Texas Chat

Re: GUI Environments
By: Folsom to S/370 on Fri Aug 09 2013 05:14 am

the same keyboard shortcuts every time. Not that it could happen now, but we need a Microsoft for the nix world.

Ok, now that's just crazy talk :-)


------------------------------------------------------------------
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telnet://bbs.dmine.net

The Programmers' SIG @ DelphiForums
http://www.delphiforums.com/prosig

------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Re: GUI Environments
By: Poindexter Fortran to S/370 on Fri Aug 09 2013 02:42 pm

S/370 wrote to Folsom <=-

As long as you stay away from that Gnome/KDE crap, you shouldn't have a problem. And if there is, there's always TWM!

I started playing with Blackbox on a low (lowlowlow) memory VM I'm running. I'm starting to like it! right click pulls up a menu, no eye candy except for a transparent Eterm...

... Accept advice

It's been a while since I used them, but I too liked Blackbox and also Fluxbox for the same reasons you stated. They are lightweigh and still manage to look nice and stay out of the way. I'm curious how they are on a laptop. I'm running a desktop right now and use KDE. Much as I love it, KDE is NOT lightweight LOL.


------------------------------------------------------------------
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The Diamond Mine BBS
telnet://bbs.dmine.net

The Programmers' SIG @ DelphiForums
http://www.delphiforums.com/prosig

------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: GUI Environments
By: Folsom to S/370 on Fri Aug 09 2013 05:14:26

all using the same keyboard shortcuts every time. Not that it could happen now, but we need a Microsoft for the nix world.

Microsoft used to be in the *nix world with their version of Unix, called Xenix:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenix

Nightfox

Re: GUI Environments
By: Nightfox to Folsom on Sat Aug 10 2013 11:24 pm

Re: GUI Environments
By: Folsom to S/370 on Fri Aug 09 2013 05:14:26

all using the same keyboard shortcuts every time. Not that it could hap now, but we need a Microsoft for the nix world.

Microsoft used to be in the *nix world with their version of Unix, called Xenix:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenix

Nightfox

I recall a few Tandy's sporting that back in the day. Of course I had no idea what it was at the time and only realized it was Unix later on.


------------------------------------------------------------------
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The Diamond Mine BBS
telnet://bbs.dmine.net

The Programmers' SIG @ DelphiForums
http://www.delphiforums.com/prosig

------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: GUI Environments
By: Chris to Nightfox on Sun Aug 11 2013 02:33 pm

Re: GUI Environments
By: Nightfox to Folsom on Sat Aug 10 2013 11:24 pm

Re: GUI Environments
By: Folsom to S/370 on Fri Aug 09 2013 05:14:26

all using the same keyboard shortcuts every time. Not that it could now, but we need a Microsoft for the nix world.

Microsoft used to be in the *nix world with their version of Unix, called Xenix:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenix

Nightfox

I recall a few Tandy's sporting that back in the day. Of course I had no ide what it was at the time and only realized it was Unix later on.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Perrault
The Diamond Mine BBS
telnet://bbs.dmine.net

The Programmers' SIG @ DelphiForums
http://www.delphiforums.com/prosig

------------------------------------------------------------------

I think xenix was sold to SCO in the end

"Practise safe Lunch, Use a Condiment"


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Re: GUI Environments
By: Folsom to All on Thu Aug 08 2013 04:35 pm

All of this talk about different desktop environments makes me realize that

not

having a stable desktop environment is a burden on everyone. Sure, I do not expect that everyone will rally around the same UI, but I do expect the ones that we pick to stop changing everything. I do not want to see changes in an

y

of the following areas:

- Program locations
- Keyboard shortcuts
- Standard programs
- Menu items
- Window behavior
- Click/drag, click/rate, double/single-click or any mouse changes
- Toolbar icons
- Program switching

I know that I sound like an old fogey, but I want GUIs to be as consistent a

s

the command line has been.

Just think how bad DOS would be if someone decided he wanted to change \ to

/,

or if the unix world decides that ln should swap the order of the arguments.

I

am not saying that I do not expect the environments to evolve over time--I l

ike

GNU utilities better than vanilla, but I do not want to see the whole thing ripped out every few years and replaced.

Give me a GUI that I can use for the next 30 years, and I will be happy.

not going to happen.

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■ Synchronet ■ The Wastelands BBS - wastelands-bbs.net - Keeping The Tradition Alive

Chris wrote to Poindexter Fortran <=-

on a laptop. I'm running a desktop right now and use KDE. Much as I
love it, KDE is NOT lightweight LOL.

I resurrected my old Thinkpad T42 (Single core 1.6 ghz Pentium M) with
Lubuntu and BlackBox - it runs quite nice. The nice thing about Blackbox is the lack of screen real estate taken on the 1024x768 screen - you can auto- hide the task bar and it's unobtrusive at best.

poindexter fortran | pfortran at realitycheckbbs dot org
| http://realitycheckbbs.org

... Not building a wall; making a brick
--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
■ Synchronet ■ electronic chicken bbs - bbs.electronicchicken.com

Give me a GUI that I can use for the next 30 years, and I will be hap

All I can say is OSX hasn't changed much since System 7, as far as
window management goes, and just incrementally improves, but doesn't
seem to "take away" very much (In terms of GUI! Sorry PPC users, etc.)

But if you're taking linux -- I seriouslly recommend twm, and, for
multiple monitors and workstations, ctwm. I first used this in the
early 90's (but decided on fvwm2, then later windowmaker, instead),
used it again in employment when I found myself on HP-UX unix at an engineering department in 2003, and used it again from 2008 through
2010, switching to "cwm" at the same employer, who was kind enough to
let me have an old mac mini in addition to my macbook -- I used
synergy, so that I could still have mac (and the required "entourage" microsoft email client), but use OpenBSD/cwm to manage ssh'ing into
so many machines (my ~/.ssh/known_hosts was over 1,000 lines when i
left that company after 3 years).

When the next job offered a linux desktop, and it had classic gnome and
I got tired of figuring it out, I just put twm on it. It was great --
so from the early 90's to the early 2010's I used the same GUI, so here
it is, my recommendation: ctwm or just plain twm. (though, like I said,
I prefer 'cwm', but this is most advanced only on OpenBSD)


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■ [TN11.1] Archaic Binary

As far as GUIs go, why not stick with a desktop manager? Windowmaker changed since I started using Linux over 10 years ago. Now that I thi

Hasn't it crashed on you, though? Many of my friends and myself used Windowmaker religiously for about 5 years, when the rest of the window
manager scene was so rapidly changing, ~2000-2005, and it crashed about
once per week for heavy users.

Pretty frustrating when you had like 90 terminals and windows open
across 8 workspaces.

It was actually revived (author came back from wherever he was hiding?
or somebody actually got the access needed to ontinue the project, I
forget) and some of these bugfixes were resolved -- but theres still
plenty in there. Just as recently as 2011 I was able to reproduce some
pretty bad bugs in their keyboard binding section and customizable menu section of the preferences app.

Sadly, the whole thing has inspired this objective-c "etoli"(spelling?)
thing, using gorm as the lead IDE, to develop a whole OSX-like
ecosystem -- and the saddest part of it all, windowmaker in of itself
doesn't use any of the cocoa-replacement libraries or even the
objective-c language, but is the only
afterstep/nextstep/osx-like-looking project thats fully complete.
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■ [TN11.1] Archaic Binary

the same keyboard shortcuts every time. Not that it could happen n
need a Microsoft for the nix world.

Ok, now that's just crazy talk :-)

^ this is the best concept ever.

I'm a huge supporter, now after changing unix-like employment about 7
times in 10 years, and as many as 30 different unix machines I made as
a desktop home, from college to work to home -- customization is BAD

I keep no .dotrc files anylonger. None at all. I learn to use whatever
it is the way it arrives by default. This is why I stopped using twm,
which I found only palatable with a .twmrc, in favor of cwm, which had
all i wanted by default.

Every now and then I still put larger font sizes into an .XResources
file, or something in .ssh/config, like port forwarding or some such,
but more or less I've become extremely nomadic -- I can sit to any
linux or OSX machine and quickly make myself at home.

Too bad I can't say the same for windows -- just to get any work
started requires several software installs and reboots. Most offices
provide at least two working days to get "settled in" if they begin you
on a windows desktop. Its actually known that this $200 OS can't get
any fucking work done out of the box. Sad, really. Though, it has a lot
more to do with the lack of any useful tooling software than it does
the GUI itself -- like you say, you can't really fix or change the
bindings, you just get used to them.

I *still* use ctrl+Escape instead of the windows key, even when I have
a windows key, because my first windows 95+ experiences were on
keyboads without them. And last I checked, it *still* works, haw haw. I recently found a way to navigate and tab through those window groups on
the start menu purely with the keyboard, (not alt+tab, but actual like, selection and navigation right/left/up/down). Too bad I already forgot
it, it was hard to find and even harder to remember, clearly.

just glad I'm no longer employed under windows hell again, haven't seen
it since january and I don't miss it a bit !
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■ [TN11.1] Archaic Binary

microsoft email client), but use OpenBSD/cwm to manage ssh'ing into
so many machines (my ~/.ssh/known_hosts was over 1,000 lines when i
left that company after 3 years).

somebody complained about X stability -- this particular mac mini was
running the same cwm, x11, openbsd, without crash or reboot for about
150 days when I packed it away the day I left. I regularly had more
than 30 remote ssh sessions going on, and never lost any of them due to
a GUI failure (though often lost them due to network failure, of
course)
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■ [TN11.1] Archaic Binary

somebody complained about X stability -- this particular mac mini was running the same cwm, x11, openbsd, without crash or reboot for about
150 days when I packed it away the day I left. I regularly had more
than 30 remote ssh sessions going on, and never lost any of them due to
a GUI failure (though often lost them due to network failure, of
course)

I had complained about it only while running a BBS and/or servers/daemons in the background while X is running. I would get a good week of uptime before something X related would freeze up and require a reboot since none of the breaking keycodes worked for those freezes. :(

If I wasn't running a BBS, web server, ftp server(s), nntp server, and whatever else on the same machine, I would be willing to bet that X would work just fine, stability and all.

Regards,
Nick


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Re: GUI Environments
By: Dingo to Folsom on Wed Aug 28 2013 15:06:00

microsoft email client), but use OpenBSD/cwm to manage ssh'ing into

Awesome. Didn't think I was going to see another OpenBSD advocate around here. :)

-The opinions expressed are not necessarily an advocation of any of the aforementioned ideologies, concepts, or actions. We still have the freedom of speech, for now, and I enjoy using it in a satirical or ficticious manner to amuse myself-

"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a
revolutionary act." -- George Orwell


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