• Your Political Leanings?
• 1) Left
• 2) Center
• 3) Right
•  
  You cannot vote on this poll.

On 2023-06-18, Mickey <INTERSPY!Mickey@vert.synchro.net> wrote:

1: Left
2: Center
3: Right

Center-left. Healthcare should not be monetized. But you are free to produce profit on anything else, such as iPhones, video game consoles...

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: anthk to Mickey on Sun Jun 18 2023 12:51 pm

On 2023-06-18, Mickey <INTERSPY!Mickey@vert.synchro.net> wrote:

1: Left
2: Center
3: Right

Center-left. Healthcare should not be monetized. But you are free to produce profit on anything else, such as iPhones, video game consoles...

there's more of a choice if it's monetized.
doctors and other workers need to get paid somehow.
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Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: Mickey to on Sat Jun 17 2023 08:07 pm

1: Left [3 33.33%] √
2: Center [6 66.67%] √
3: Right [0 0.00%]

To vote in this poll, press V now.

I am lacking the option for "I hate them all, long life Konkin"

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: anthk to Mickey on Sun Jun 18 2023 12:51 pm

Center-left. Healthcare should not be monetized. But you are free to produce > profit on anything else, such as iPhones, video game consoles...

I have a problem with the idea that medical services are a magical thing that is exempt of the right to get paid.

We may as well tell farmers and workers at grocery stores that, since their work is essential (and people will need it more often than a Doctor's) they have no right to get paid for it.

This is specially tiresome because I often get this from people they screwed insocialized healthcare and come to unsocialized healthcare chanting that
healthcare should be socialized and that private healthcare sucks. Ok, you are free to think it sucks but then go back to socialized healthcare, right?

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: MRO to anthk on Sun Jun 18 2023 03:43 pm

Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: anthk to Mickey on Sun Jun 18 2023 12:51 pm

On 2023-06-18, Mickey <INTERSPY!Mickey@vert.synchro.net> wrote:

1: Left
2: Center
3: Right

Center-left. Healthcare should not be monetized. But you are free to prod > > profit on anything else, such as iPhones, video game consoles...

there's more of a choice if it's monetized.
doctors and other workers need to get paid somehow.
---

Something funny that happens in Spain is that they force you to buy socialized healthcare whether you want it or not, so if you end up using something else, you pay your healthcare twice: the socialized one and the second option...

...except if you are a public servant or officer. In that case, you are given the option of buying either socialized healthcare or private healthcare and buying only the one you use. I know nobody who picks socialized.

--
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Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: MRO to anthk on Sun Jun 18 2023 03:43 pm

there's more of a choice if it's monetized.
doctors and other workers need to get paid somehow.

In the system I work for, everyone absolutely agrees!

Unfortunately, the free market keeps directing all that pay to
health insurance admins, hospital admins, and politicians.

But maybe if we throw even more money at it, some of that will trickle down?

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: Margaerynne to MRO on Sun Jun 18 2023 09:57 pm

Unfortunately, the free market keeps directing all that pay to
health insurance admins, hospital admins, and politicians.

so doctors and nurses don't have good pay and benefits?
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MRO wrote to Margaerynne <=-

Unfortunately, the free market keeps directing all that pay to
health insurance admins, hospital admins, and politicians.

so doctors and nurses don't have good pay and benefits?

Nurses are not particularly well-paid.

Similar to teachers and first responders.


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Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: Margaerynne to MRO on Sun Jun 18 2023 09:57 pm

Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: MRO to anthk on Sun Jun 18 2023 03:43 pm

there's more of a choice if it's monetized.
doctors and other workers need to get paid somehow.

In the system I work for, everyone absolutely agrees!

Unfortunately, the free market keeps directing all that pay to
health insurance admins, hospital admins, and politicians.

But maybe if we throw even more money at it, some of that will trickle down

Try with small independent clinics that don't work as part of a big hospitalarygroup.

Insurance companies usually pipe all the patients to big hospitalary groups because it is safer for them in the long run ("nobody got ever fired for hiringIBM") but IMO small clinics are hard to beat when it comes to the quality of
the service.

Fun fact is small independent units are dropping insurance contracts like crazyas of late. Socialized healthcare is so overloaded as of late that there is a
big number of patients bleeding out of it into private healthcare, and independent health professionals would rather not deal with insurance companiessince they barely have the capacity to deal with the number of independent
patients they get anyway.

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On 2023-06-18, Mickey <INTERSPY!Mickey@vert.synchro.net> wrote:

1: Left
2: Center
3: Right

Center-left. Healthcare should not be monetized. But you are free to produce profit on anything else, such as iPhones, video game consoles...

So doctors, nurses, physical therapists, etc. should all take a vow of poverty? Instead of dialysis machines (which costs money) we should rely on leeches and blood letting?

Hate to break it to you, but it costs MONEY to have the best healthcare in the world.

Perhaps the better solution is to REDUCE the excessive costs of insurance and legal protection that raise cost to the patient. Most doctors are required to carry over one million dollars of liability insurance just to protect themselves if something goes other than planned.


Regards,
-==*>Weatherman<*==-

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1: Left
2: Center
3: Right

Right. And proudly so.
Regards,
-==*>Weatherman<*==-

---
■ Synchronet ■ The Lost Chord BBS - Cheyenne, WY

On 2023-06-18, MRO <BBSESINF!MRO@vert.synchro.net> wrote:

Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: anthk to Mickey on Sun Jun 18 2023 12:51 pm

On 2023-06-18, Mickey <INTERSPY!Mickey@vert.synchro.net> wrote:

1: Left
2: Center
3: Right

Center-left. Healthcare should not be monetized. But you are free to produce
profit on anything else, such as iPhones, video game consoles...

there's more of a choice if it's monetized.
doctors and other workers need to get paid somehow.
---
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They get paid. It's called taxes. The goverment pays a big chunk for them monthly.

---
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On 2023-06-18, Arelor <PALANTIR!Arelor@vert.synchro.net> wrote:

Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: MRO to anthk on Sun Jun 18 2023 03:43 pm

Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: anthk to Mickey on Sun Jun 18 2023 12:51 pm

On 2023-06-18, Mickey <INTERSPY!Mickey@vert.synchro.net> wrote:

1: Left
2: Center
3: Right

Center-left. Healthcare should not be monetized. But you are free to prod > > profit on anything else, such as iPhones, video game consoles...

there's more of a choice if it's monetized.
doctors and other workers need to get paid somehow.
---

Something funny that happens in Spain is that they force you to buy socialized
healthcare whether you want it or not, so if you end up using something else, you pay your healthcare twice: the socialized one and the second option...

...except if you are a public servant or officer. In that case, you are given the option of buying either socialized healthcare or private healthcare and buying only the one you use. I know nobody who picks socialized.

--
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â–  Synchronet â–  Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL

I'm from Spain. I know that. But a lot of people it's dumb, even the "loaded" ones. My ex-uncle got a horrible private medical service for something better done under public healthcare. My ex-uncle was right-leaned with neocon
ideas, BTW.
People often doesn't have a clue. They thing paid = exclusive = better.
Until they figure out that most products are overprized turds. Everywhere.

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: Arelor to anthk on Sun Jun 18 2023 06:54 pm

Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: anthk to Mickey on Sun Jun 18 2023 12:51 pm
This is specially tiresome because I often get this from people they screwed insocialized healthcare and come to unsocialized healthcare chanting that healthcare should be socialized and that private healthcare sucks. Ok, you are free to think it sucks but then go back to socialized healthcare, right?

There an interesting difference between the U.S. and Canada but IT is currently changing. We've decided up here that we should have private healthcare as well as public. Some provinces are slowly implementing it and it's quite popular among people 'with money'.

It's going to open a whole bunch of whoop ass among us gentle folk.

----

Mick Manning
Central Ontario Remote BBS
centralontarioremote.com:9080

Mick

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: Arelor to Margaerynne on Mon Jun 19 2023 07:45 am

Try with small independent clinics that don't work as part of a big hospitalarygroup.

Insurance companies usually pipe all the patients to big hospitalary groups because it is safer for them in the long
run ("nobody got ever fired for hiringIBM") but IMO small clinics are hard to beat when it comes to the quality of
the service.

Fun fact is small independent units are dropping insurance contracts like crazyas of late. Socialized healthcare is
so overloaded as of late that there is a
big number of patients bleeding out of it into private healthcare, and independent health professionals would rather
not deal with insurance companiessince they barely have the capacity to deal with the number of independent
patients they get anyway.

I admittedly have no idea what life is like for smaller orgs, and (no snark intended) I'd be interested in reading
more about your experience.

From my little knowledge small clinics are best for routine/general care. Honestly I'm extremely in favor of people
getting their basic care met at the most local/least complicated level possible, and only seeing a specialist if
there's anything that warrants it. Unfortunately it's near impossible to find independent places accepting patients
in my city, so it's off to the hospital megacorp I go.

As for socialized vs private -- you're in Spain, right? I also know absolutely nothing about Euro medicine, so you
would definitely have a better take there.

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: MRO to Margaerynne on Mon Jun 19 2023 06:03 am

Unfortunately, the free market keeps directing all that pay to
health insurance admins, hospital admins, and politicians.

so doctors and nurses don't have good pay and benefits?

My last response was a little flippant, but it can depend.

To your point, it seems that nurses here make a little over the median US salary,
which does counter my assumption. Apparently the system I work for is just particularly
cheap, which might explain a few things.

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Arelor to Margaerynne on Mon Jun 19 2023 07:45 am

Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: Margaerynne to MRO on Sun Jun 18 2023 09:57 pm

Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: MRO to anthk on Sun Jun 18 2023 03:43 pm

there's more of a choice if it's monetized.
doctors and other workers need to get paid somehow.

In the system I work for, everyone absolutely agrees!

Unfortunately, the free market keeps directing all that pay to
health insurance admins, hospital admins, and politicians.

But maybe if we throw even more money at it, some of that will trickle d

Try with small independent clinics that don't work as part of a big hospital

Insurance companies usually pipe all the patients to big hospitalary groups because it is safer for them in the long run ("nobody got ever fired for hir the service.

Fun fact is small independent units are dropping insurance contracts like cr big number of patients bleeding out of it into private healthcare, and independent health professionals would rather not deal with insurance compan patients they get anyway.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

At a previous job the HR department was constantly changing health insurance carriers. Eventually they went to an HMO plan, where the plan only paid if
you went to "in system" health providers. If an employee went outside the net work in order to stay with an established practioner, the amount paid would
be way less or non-existant. The "preferred" doctors were an hour to 90 minute's drive away, and overbooked. Schedu ling an appointment meant you could wait 6 months to a year.

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: Gamgee to MRO on Mon Jun 19 2023 07:28 am

MRO wrote to Margaerynne <=-

Nurses are not particularly well-paid.

Similar to teachers and first responders.

Teachers in Ontario are making in access of 100,000/Annual
What's wrong with that? IT certainly isn't minimum wage.


------------
Mick Manning
Central Ontario Remote BBS
centralontarioremote.com:2323

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: Weatherman to anthk on Mon Jun 19 2023 10:48 am

On 2023-06-18, Mickey <INTERSPY!Mickey@vert.synchro.net> wrote:

Perhaps the better solution is to REDUCE the excessive costs of insurance and legal protection that raise cost to the patient. Most doctors are required to carry over one million dollars of liability insurance just to protect themselves if something goes other than planned.

One of the problems, is that society these days being so litigeous. If you're working with the public these days you need a minimum of 2-3 million dollars of public liabilty insurance. My God, a million bucks wouldn't be near enough if you killed Betty Brown's fluffy dog at a Vet's office, let alone a human in the hospital. It's damn expensive, so everyones costs go through the roof to pay for it.


------------
Mick Manning
Central Ontario Remote BBS
centralontarioremote.com:2323

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: Mickey to Gamgee on Mon Jun 19 2023 06:51 pm

Teachers in Ontario are making in access of 100,000/Annual
What's wrong with that? IT certainly isn't minimum wage.

Maybe it's different in Canada, but I often hear about teachers in the US making relatively less than people in other careers. I just did a quick search online and found this page:

https://www.niche.com/blog/teacher-salaries-in-america/

Nightfox

MRO wrote to anthk <=-

there's more of a choice if it's monetized.
doctors and other workers need to get paid somehow.

They get paid in countries with socialized medicare. Most socialized
countries have a national health service and for-profit care for people
who can/want to subscribe to them, but people who can't afford for-pay
care still get taken care of...

Which benefits the economy and the country as a whole. Imagine if
people had access to pre-natal care, access to children's healthcare,
and income could be diverted to other things like food and shelter.
We'd end up with a much better society than one that has kids who can't
go to the doctor unless they go to an emergency room, didn't get proper
care in the first 5 years of their life - starting off on a whole
different trajectory than they could if medical care weren't
for-profit.






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Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: anthk to All on Mon Jun 19 2023 10:01 am

there's more of a choice if it's monetized.
doctors and other workers need to get paid somehow.

They get paid. It's called taxes. The goverment pays a big chunk for them monthly.

in my country it doesn't work like that.
and socialized medicine has it's issues in other countries.
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Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: Mickey to Arelor on Mon Jun 19 2023 10:01 am

There an interesting difference between the U.S. and Canada but IT is currently changing. We've decided up here that we should have private healthcare as well as public. Some provinces are slowly implementing it and it's quite popular among people 'with money'.

that sounds great. i hope the employers will start offering it to employees.

It's going to open a whole bunch of whoop ass among us gentle folk.

that would be stupid. like letting your govt take away your guns.
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Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: Margaerynne to MRO on Mon Jun 19 2023 04:48 pm

To your point, it seems that nurses here make a little over the median US salary,
which does counter my assumption. Apparently the system I work for is just particularly
cheap, which might explain a few things.

whatever dude.
it's your story, tell it how you want to tell it.
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there's more of a choice if it's monetized.

None of us have a choice. We all buy into some insurance plan that makes all the decisions for us. We don't shop for insurance based on what doctor they will allow us to visit, we shop for insurance based on what our employer gives us.

The illusion of choice is a powerful marketing tool for political ideas.

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: Nightfox to Mickey on Mon Jun 19 2023 05:53 pm

Maybe it's different in Canada, but I often hear about teachers in the US making relatively less than people in other careers. I just did a quick search online and found this page:

https://www.niche.com/blog/teacher-salaries-in-america/

i met this lady who said she works at amazon now for 20 bucks an hour because her teaching job's insurance was so damn expensive.
so she quit teaching and makes more money working at amazon with great ins.
and amazon will pay for like 5200 a year for school after 30 days of working there.

she wasn't a teacher for over a decade so she was getting the short end of the stick.
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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Moondog to Arelor on Mon Jun 19 2023 01:50 pm

At a previous job the HR department was constantly changing health insurance carriers. Eventually they went to an HMO plan, where the plan only paid if you went to "in system" health providers. If an employee went outside the net work in order to stay with an established practioner, the amount paid would
be way less or non-existant. The "preferred" doctors were an hour to 90 minute's drive away, and overbooked. Schedu ling an appointment meant you could wait 6 months to a year.

i'm working at this place where they have weird ass insurance.
it's all 'free' but it's reimbursed 100%. so apparently we go in there and show our card and do our copay and that gets reimbursed.

the main one is united healthcare but we go through 2 other services to process it.
very confusing.
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Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: Mickey to Weatherman on Mon Jun 19 2023 06:59 pm

One of the problems, is that society these days being so litigeous. If you're working with the public these days you need a minimum of 2-3 million dollars of public liabilty insurance. My God, a million bucks wouldn't be near enough if you killed Betty Brown's fluffy dog at a Vet's office, let alone a human in the hospital. It's damn expensive, so everyones costs go through the roof to pay for it.

and because people know that hospitals and the medical industry have this big money buffer, that's why they are sued so much.
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Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: Nightfox to Mickey on Mon Jun 19 2023 05:53 pm

Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: Mickey to Gamgee on Mon Jun 19 2023 06:51 pm

Teachers in Ontario are making in access of 100,000/Annual
What's wrong with that? IT certainly isn't minimum wage.

Maybe it's different in Canada, but I often hear about teachers in the US making relatively less than people in other careers. I just did a quick search online and found this page:

https://www.niche.com/blog/teacher-salaries-in-america/

yeah so in my state they start out with about 17 bucks an hour. then they have to pay into the union AND pay ins fees.
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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: esc to MRO on Mon Jun 19 2023 08:51 pm

there's more of a choice if it's monetized.

None of us have a choice. We all buy into some insurance plan that makes all the decisions for us. We don't shop for insurance based on what doctor they will allow us to visit, we shop for insurance based on what our employer gives us.

The illusion of choice is a powerful marketing tool for political ideas.

wouldn't it be nice if you could shop around where it would be cheaper?
but orange man bad!

you can still refuse your employeers insurance and get it off the obamacare marketplace.
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you can still refuse your employeers insurance and get it off the obamacare marketplace.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that people like to tout our "choice" as in we select where we want to receive care. But this is far from the case. Our choice is in the insurance we elect to purchase, and only sort of if you're not rich, or if your company doesn't have some Cadillac plan. Some choice.

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: Arelor to anthk on Sun Jun 18 2023 06:54 pm

Center-left. Healthcare should not be monetized. But you are free to

I have a problem with the idea that medical services are a magical thing tha is exempt of the right to get paid.

I have a problem with healthcare only being available to people with money.

...What do you think management's real interests are?
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Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: MRO to Mickey on Mon Jun 19 2023 10:28 pm

It's going to open a whole bunch of whoop ass among us gentle folk.

that would be stupid. like letting your govt take away your guns.

That's already happened here. You can't buy an air rifle in Canada, without a permit. Oh you can get a permit, if you have no speeding tickets, or accusations of cruelty to small animals. :-)


------------
Mick Manning
Central Ontario Remote BBS
centralontarioremote.com:2323

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On 19 Jun 2023, Mickey said the following...

There an interesting difference between the U.S. and Canada but IT is currently changing. We've decided up here that we should have private healthcare as well as public. Some provinces are slowly implementing it and it's quite popular among people 'with money'.

It's going to open a whole bunch of whoop ass among us gentle folk.

There is a 2 tier health care system here and it's been here for a long time. There are those who can afford to go to the US and get services done and those who can't and they wait.

I don't get it either... If someone needs a procedure done and they choose to pay for it... what's the problem?? If there is a hybrid public-private system. 1 The money stays in Canada, rather than the US. and 2 if the person who chose to pay for a service... They are not on the waiting waiting list for public services... and if they are taken care with their own money the public system won't haver to care or pay for them.

IB Joe, Pronouns (FJB/LGB)
AKA Joe Schweier
SysOp of 4A 6F 65 73 42 42 53
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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: esc to MRO on Mon Jun 19 2023 11:22 pm

you can still refuse your employeers insurance and get it off the obamacare marketplace.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that people like to tout our "choice" as in we select where we want to receive care. But this is far from the case. Our choice is in the insurance we elect to purchase, and only sort of if you're not rich, or if your company doesn't have some Cadillac plan. Some choice.

i'm old so i'll tell you how the world is as i see it.

insurance is bullshit. you are getting fucked in the ass no matter what.
it's more important to stay healthy so you do not get to the point where you depend on medical care.

You are better off doing what morgan spurlock did where he went to bangkok and had the works done and stayed at a nice hotel for cash.

When you are young, put the money you would have put into insurance into your 401k instead and then change the stocks it invests into to be the winners.

When you need serious medical care, take out a 401k loan or make a hardship withdrawl and get whatever you need done.

otherwise you are going to be like me. i paid into insurance my entire life but barely used it. all my money went to treatment for people who DON'T take care of themselves and probably did drugs. Then when i wanted to go in i had to pay a copay and fight with the insurance company a few times to get them to cover whatever i had done. it wasn't worth it.

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: Hustler to Arelor on Tue Jun 20 2023 03:05 am

I have a problem with the idea that medical services are a magical thing tha is exempt of the right to get paid.

I have a problem with healthcare only being available to people with money.

you can walk into an emergency room and get treatment.
you can also get assistance for medical care.

if you worked at amazon you could have great insurance.
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Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: Mickey to MRO on Tue Jun 20 2023 07:44 am

that would be stupid. like letting your govt take away your guns.

That's already happened here. You can't buy an air rifle in Canada, without a permit. Oh you can get a permit, if you have no speeding tickets, or

yes, that's why i said that.
he said he would never do it and he did.
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Mickey wrote to Gamgee <=-

Nurses are not particularly well-paid.
Similar to teachers and first responders.

Teachers in Ontario are making in access of 100,000/Annual
What's wrong with that? IT certainly isn't minimum wage.

Nothing wrong with that. It's probably not true for that many teachers, though. This site:

https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/ontario-teacher-salary-SRCH_IL.0,7_IS4080_KO8,15.htm

says the median is more like $75K, which is still not too bad.

Also my original comment above was probably meant more in the context
of, at least in the USA, teachers have been historically under-paid when
you consider the dedication/effort needed versus the compensation
provided.

Again, at least in the USA, nurses, teachers, and first-responders are
pretty much universally considered to be under-paid.



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Hustler wrote to Arelor <=-

I have a problem with the idea that medical services are a magical thing tha is exempt of the right to get paid.

I have a problem with healthcare only being available to people
with money.

Where / what country is that true in? (Hint: it's not the USA).



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Mickey wrote to MRO <=-

that would be stupid. like letting your govt take away your guns.

That's already happened here. You can't buy an air rifle in
Canada, without a permit. Oh you can get a permit, if you have no
speeding tickets, or accusations of cruelty to small animals. :-)

That's because Canadian citizens don't have the same rights as USA
citizens, guaranteed to us by the US Constitution. No "permit"
required.



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Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: Weatherman to anthk on Mon Jun 19 2023 10:48 am

On 2023-06-18, Mickey <INTERSPY!Mickey@vert.synchro.net> wrote:

Perhaps the better solution is to REDUCE the excessive costs of insurance and legal protection that raise cost to the patient. Most doctors are required to carry over one million dollars of liability insurance just to protect themselves if something goes other than planned.

One of the problems, is that society these days being so litigeous. If you're working with the public these days you need a minimum of 2-3 million dollars of public liabilty insurance. My God, a million bucks wouldn't be near enough if you killed Betty Brown's fluffy dog at a Vet's office, let alone a human in the hospital. It's damn expensive, so everyones costs go through the roof to pay for it.

Agreed. What is forgotten so many times is the fact that when the cost of doing business goes up, it's not the business who pays that increase, it's the customer. This country is so sue-happy it's ridiculous. It drives the cost of doing business sky high, that cost is passed on to the consumer, so the cost of everything - particularly medical care - often becomes prohibitive. On top of that you have a situation where medical insurance actually drives up the cost of medical services as well. This is the same thing that's happened with college education. You have an outside agency (medical insurance/student loan provider) who guarantees to cover the cost of a service (medical or educational) and so with guaranteed payment of whatever fee you ask for, there's no incentive to keep costs low. End result? People cannot afford to pay for either medical care or secondary education out of their pockets.

I say that we need to restructure both programs so that there is a real and concrete incentive to keep the costs of medical AND educational services as low as possible.

Regards,
-==*>Weatherman<*==-

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Perhaps the better solution is to REDUCE the excessive costs of insurance

n

legal protection that raise cost to the patient. Most doctors are required

o

carry over one million dollars of liability insurance just to protect themselves if something goes other than planned.

+1


* SLMR 2.1a * How do you know if you run out of invisible ink?

---
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There an interesting difference between the U.S. and Canada but IT is

urrently

changing. We've decided up here that we should have private healthcare as well >s public. Some provinces are slowly implementing it and it's quite popular

mon

people 'with money'.

Someone may have realized that they were losing out on money that was going
to healh care plans in the US.


* SLMR 2.1a * I'm not tense, just terribly A*L*E*R*T.

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Nightfox to Mickey on Mon Jun 19 2023 05:53 pm

Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: Mickey to Gamgee on Mon Jun 19 2023 06:51 pm

Teachers in Ontario are making in access of 100,000/Annual
What's wrong with that? IT certainly isn't minimum wage.

Maybe it's different in Canada, but I often hear about teachers in the US ma

https://www.niche.com/blog/teacher-salaries-in-america/

Nightfox

Teachers only work 9 months out of the year. I had some teachers that would take on other work during the summer break.

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: MRO to Moondog on Mon Jun 19 2023 10:33 pm

Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Moondog to Arelor on Mon Jun 19 2023 01:50 pm

At a previous job the HR department was constantly changing health insura carriers. Eventually they went to an HMO plan, where the plan only paid you went to "in system" health providers. If an employee went outside th net work in order to stay with an established practioner, the amount paid would
be way less or non-existant. The "preferred" doctors were an hour to 90 minute's drive away, and overbooked. Schedu ling an appointment meant yo could wait 6 months to a year.

i'm working at this place where they have weird ass insurance.
it's all 'free' but it's reimbursed 100%. so apparently we go in there and s

the main one is united healthcare but we go through 2 other services to proc very confusing.

My first job outside of college offered paid insurance. Every other place I had to buy into a plan. The "paid" program started out good, but they kept changing plans every 6 months, then it got to the point I mentioned before. Large US country-wide provider, nearest "in network" doctor or medical center was 70+ miles away.

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: MRO to esc on Mon Jun 19 2023 11:04 pm

Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: esc to MRO on Mon Jun 19 2023 08:51 pm

there's more of a choice if it's monetized.

None of us have a choice. We all buy into some insurance plan that makes the decisions for us. We don't shop for insurance based on what doctor th will allow us to visit, we shop for insurance based on what our employer gives us.

The illusion of choice is a powerful marketing tool for political ideas.

wouldn't it be nice if you could shop around where it would be cheaper?
but orange man bad!

you can still refuse your employeers insurance and get it off the obamacare marketplace.

You can shop around, but it's on your own dime. Some company insurance providers will not act as your primary provider if you have a spouse that has another provider.

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: Gamgee to Mickey on Tue Jun 20 2023 08:27 am

Mickey wrote to MRO <=-

That's because Canadian citizens don't have the same rights as USA
citizens, guaranteed to us by the US Constitution. No "permit"
required.

We have a constitution as well (no guns icluded though) but they change it all the time, and remove or add whatever they want depending on the issues of the day. They just added the right to BE whatever you feel like. I for example, often feel like a mushroom (and you know why)


------------
Mick Manning
Central Ontario Remote BBS
centralontarioremote.com:2323

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: MRO to esc on Tue Jun 20 2023 09:02 am

Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: esc to MRO on Mon Jun 19 2023 11:22 pm

you can still refuse your employeers insurance and get it off the obamacare marketplace.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that people like to tout our "choice" as in we select where we want to receive care. But this is far f the case. Our choice is in the insurance we elect to purchase, and only s of if you're not rich, or if your company doesn't have some Cadillac plan Some choice.

i'm old so i'll tell you how the world is as i see it.

insurance is bullshit. you are getting fucked in the ass no matter what. it's more important to stay healthy so you do not get to the point where you

You are better off doing what morgan spurlock did where he went to bangkok a

When you are young, put the money you would have put into insurance into you

When you need serious medical care, take out a 401k loan or make a hardship

otherwise you are going to be like me. i paid into insurance my entire life but barely used it. all my money went to treatment for people who DON'T tak
done. it wasn't worth it.

Sounds like a good plan until something unexpected happens. You can be as careful as you want, then the actions of someone else places you into the hospital.

I worked with a guy diagnosed with brain cancer when he was 28. There was no way he could've saved enough money for treatment. He just left the Navy two years before.

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Moondog to MRO on Tue Jun 20 2023 08:27 pm

I worked with a guy diagnosed with brain cancer when he was 28. There was no way he could've saved enough money for treatment. He just left the Navy two years before.

People in the US are better off without. If you don't/can't buy insurance you are insured anyway. If you don't have a drivers licence they can't give you a ticket. There's a lot to be said about having nothing. Can't afford food? No problem, you get free food. If you work then you're resposible for everthing. No free food, no free housing, no free medical. Why do you think people want to live in America?


|12HusTler


...Do you ever see inconsistencies in your world?
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Mickey wrote to Gamgee <=-

That's because Canadian citizens don't have the same rights as USA
citizens, guaranteed to us by the US Constitution. No "permit"
required.

We have a constitution as well (no guns icluded though) but they
change it all the time, and remove or add whatever they want
depending on the issues of the day. They just added the right to
BE whatever you feel like. I for example, often feel like a
mushroom (and you know why)

Understood. It's really quite different then, because our Constitution
is very difficult to change, and rarely is. That's a good thing.



... Freedom isn't free.
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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Moondog to MRO on Tue Jun 20 2023 02:01 pm

You can shop around, but it's on your own dime. Some company insurance providers will not act as your primary provider if you have a spouse that has another provider.

well if you are on their insurance they will complain.
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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Moondog to MRO on Tue Jun 20 2023 08:27 pm

Sounds like a good plan until something unexpected happens. You can be

as
careful as you want, then the actions of someone else places you into the hospital.

you can just take out from your savings. or just don't pay the bill.
if had i put as much money as i paid into insurance into my 401k, and then did my regular personal and company contribution AND invested it well i'd have a small fortune.

And like i said, you can fly to bangkok and get the world's best treatment and doctors for cheap. right now for me, a round trip flight is 1700.

---
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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Hustler to Moondog on Wed Jun 21 2023 04:26 am

People in the US are better off without. If you don't/can't buy insurance you are insured anyway. If you don't have a drivers licence they can't give you a ticket. There's a lot to be said about having nothing. Can't afford food? No problem, you get free food. If you work then you're resposible for everthing. No free food, no free housing, no free medical. Why do you think people want to live in America?

i know people who were given a large house when they couldnt afford it. eventually it went into disrepair and they gave up the house.
he still had a mortage to pay but he got a large downpayment from assistance.

meanwhile the only way i am getting a house is if a relative dies.
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Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: Gamgee to Mickey on Tue Jun 20 2023 08:04 am

Again, at least in the USA, nurses, teachers, and first-responders are pretty much universally considered to be under-paid.

Maybe it depends what part of the country you're in? On the West end of the country, once you are a Registered Nurse (or RN), you're making at least 100k.
Maybe that's "under-paid" these days.

... Freedom isn't free.

Freedom costs a buck o' five.

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Understood. It's really quite different then, because our Constitution is very difficult to change, and rarely is. That's a good thing.

I agree! However one thing that's interesting is that when the framers of our constitution created it, their intent was that the amendment construct would make our constitution evolve over time pretty easily. I think it's good that things didn't really work out that way.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M

We have a constitution as well (no guns icluded though) but they change it all >he time, and remove or add whatever they want depending on the issues of the

a

. They just added the right to BE whatever you feel like. I for example, often >eel like a mushroom (and you know why)

The current ruling party here is envious of how your government is able to
do that. Here, they have to get the states to vote to ratify changes
which, lucky for us, is difficult to do.


* SLMR 2.1a * Did you expect mere proof to sway my opinion?

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Dumas Walker to MICKEY on Tue Jun 20 2023 04:10 pm

There an interesting difference between the U.S. and Canada but IT is urrently

Someone may have realized that they were losing out on money that was going to healh care plans in the US.

I'm sure they did. Many people have been crossing over to 'the other side' to get treatments that were taking too long to schedule in Canada. We're too busy performing births to pregnant foreigners so their child will be a Canadian citizen.


------------
Mick Manning
Central Ontario Remote BBS
centralontarioremote.com:2323

---
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esc wrote to Gamgee <=-

Understood. It's really quite different then, because our Constitution
is very difficult to change, and rarely is. That's a good thing.

I agree! However one thing that's interesting is that when the
framers of our constitution created it, their intent was that the amendment construct would make our constitution evolve over time
pretty easily. I think it's good that things didn't really work
out that way.

Yes, indeed, me too.

The good part is that it certainly *HAS* changed/evolved over the years,
and those changes have mostly been VERY important as society changed
over the last 250 years. Seems like it's working well to me. The fact
that it's only been amended some 20-odd times in that time period is
further confirmation of how well thought out it was by those framers.



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Phigan wrote to Gamgee <=-

Again, at least in the USA, nurses, teachers, and first-responders are pretty much universally considered to be under-paid.

Maybe it depends what part of the country you're in? On the West
end of the country, once you are a Registered Nurse (or RN),
you're making at least 100k. Maybe that's "under-paid" these
days.

That is DEFINITELY not true in other parts of the country. Certainly
not here in the Southeast. It's more like half of that, starting out.

Of course, it's probably much closer than it appears, due to the
inflated cost of living, and taxes, on the left coast.



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Hustler wrote to Moondog <=-

I worked with a guy diagnosed with brain cancer when he was 28. There was no way he could've saved enough money for treatment. He just left the Navy two years before.

People in the US are better off without. If you don't/can't buy insurance you are insured anyway. If you don't have a drivers
licence they can't give you a ticket. There's a lot to be said
about having nothing. Can't afford food? No problem, you get free
food. If you work then you're resposible for everthing. No free
food, no free housing, no free medical. Why do you think people
want to live in America?

I like to think it's because of the freedom, not the free shit.



... Freedom isn't free.
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MRO wrote to Moondog <=-

Sounds like a good plan until something unexpected happens. You can be
as
careful as you want, then the actions of someone else places you into the hospital.

you can just take out from your savings. or just don't pay the
bill. if had i put as much money as i paid into insurance into my
401k, and then did my regular personal and company contribution
AND invested it well i'd have a small fortune.

And like i said, you can fly to bangkok and get the world's best
treatment and doctors for cheap. right now for me, a round trip
flight is 1700.

Have I said this before? You're a moron.



... Anything is possible if you don't know what you're talking about
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MRO wrote to Hustler <=-

People in the US are better off without. If you don't/can't buy insurance you are insured anyway. If you don't have a drivers licence they can't give you a ticket. There's a lot to be said about having nothing. Can't afford food? No problem, you get free food. If you work then you're resposible for everthing. No free food, no free housing, no free medical. Why do you think people want to live in America?

i know people who were given a large house when they couldnt
afford it. eventually it went into disrepair and they gave up the
house. he still had a mortage to pay but he got a large
downpayment from assistance.

meanwhile the only way i am getting a house is if a relative
dies.

In multiple other posts you're dispensing financial advice, and claiming expertise, and lamenting that you didn't put more in your 401k, and
yet.... you don't have any money to put a down payment on a house?

Strange.



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Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: Mickey to on Sat Jun 17 2023 20:07:59

Conservative-leaning Libertarian. I'm able to disagree with everyone.


--
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Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: anthk to Mickey on Sun Jun 18 2023 12:51:14

Center-left. Healthcare should not be monetized. But you are free to produce profit on anything else, such as iPhones, video game consoles...

I don't mind monitizing healthcare to an extent, but a few things need to happen...

Insurance companies should not own portions of providers or pharma and
should be required to act as a fiduciary on behalf of their clients.

Prescription medications should require dual sourcing and at least 50% domestic production (requires licensing). Also, extension patents on medications, if allowed should be limited to maybe 5 years. Also, remove patents from govt funded research, or otherwise seriously limit the terms and/or licensing.

Govt funded medical programs should be collapsed into a single non-profit insurance corporation. That includes federal employees, VA/family benefits, medicare, medicade. This program should be available for any company or individual to purchase a plan from.

The above steps would provide a decent baseline to ensure competition brings prices to a better position instead of just increasing the pool when profit levels are limited no N%. I also wouldn't provide liability shields, as with the covid vaccine. Would also roll back advertising rules to early 70's standards.


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Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: anthk to All on Mon Jun 19 2023 10:01:08

They get paid. It's called taxes. The goverment pays a big chunk for them monthly.

First, "government money" aka "taxes" are via theft from the people. It should be absolutely minimized. Also, most govt spend goes to debt, entitlements and the military.

Would need to reduce the terms of non-living entities funding politics. Then you would need to limit the terms of govt employment. Then you could, maybe allow for negotiation for govt provided instances of healthcare. But that's a lot of if and then. When I'd much rather have more limitations on both corporate structures and the govt as a whole.


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Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: Gamgee to Mickey on Tue Jun 20 2023 08:04:00

https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/ontario-teacher-salary-SRCH_IL.0,7_IS40 80_KO 8,15.htm

says the median is more like $75K, which is still not too bad.

Also my original comment above was probably meant more in the context
of, at least in the USA, teachers have been historically under-paid when you consider the dedication/effort needed versus the compensation provided.

My impression is that's largely just talking points from teacher unions. It's definitely an important job, and I wouldn't mind if it were higher for better teachers, but they aren't paid by better, they are generally paid by seniority. Also worth noting that they have a *LOT* more time off than most professions that generally isn't taken into account.


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Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: Gamgee to Mickey on Wed Jun 21 2023 07:27:00

Understood. It's really quite different then, because our Constitution
is very difficult to change, and rarely is. That's a good thing.

It's really not *THAT* difficult, it's just people are so divided at this point, and usually on issues that are less important. In that those issues that could gain popular support just don't.


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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: MRO to Moondog on Wed Jun 21 2023 07:33:44

You can shop around, but it's on your own dime. Some company
insurance providers will not act as your primary provider if you have
a spouse that has another provider.

well if you are on their insurance they will complain.

May vary from state to state... here in AZ at least it's pretty easy to setup a primary/secondary as a co-insurance or something akin to that. When it's setup that way, and the provider bills correctly, you are usually paying $0 out of pocket (beyond premiums to the insurance companies).


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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: MRO to Moondog on Wed Jun 21 2023 07:37:34

you can just take out from your savings. or just don't pay the bill.
if had i put as much money as i paid into insurance into my 401k, and then did my regular personal and company contribution AND invested it well i'd have a small fortune.

Depending on the state you're in, they can put a judgement against you and have it deducted from your paycheck, *AND* add it late payment penalties as well as relatively high (think credit card level) interest. This can even happen after your debt was sold by the original carrier.

Some of the really discusting practices have been legally stopped in the past few years... dealing with a lawsuit right now from just before two of those laws passed, and a month before it would have been "in network" for emergency services and followup.


--
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+o roughneckbbs.com
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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: MRO to Moondog on Wed Jun 21 2023 07:37 am

Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Moondog to MRO on Tue Jun 20 2023 08:27 pm

Sounds like a good plan until something unexpected happens. You can be

as
careful as you want, then the actions of someone else places you into the hospital.

you can just take out from your savings. or just don't pay the bill.
if had i put as much money as i paid into insurance into my 401k, and then d

And like i said, you can fly to bangkok and get the world's best treatment a

That is assuming you can save enough money for unexpected health issues. An unexpected injury can happen to you early in your career before you have a
nice 401k or savings account built up. You can live a healthy life be as careful as you want, but you can be injured in a car accident and require immediate treatment. I doubt the first responding paramedics will patch you
up enough to jump on a plane to Thailand. Trips to Thailand are fine for elective surgery. I had a friend that worked for Halliburton, and they flew him to the Ukraine for a dental procedure. If he was in a car accident and
his jaw had to be reconstructed, treatment will be done by the closest
hospital capable of doing the work.

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: anthk to All on Mon Jun 19 2023 10:01 am

They get paid. It's called taxes. The goverment pays a big chunk for them mo

Therefore workers make a profit. Therefore it is a for-profit operation for a number of people.

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: Margaerynne to Arelor on Mon Jun 19 2023 04:41 pm

I admittedly have no idea what life is like for smaller orgs, and (no snark > more about your experience.

From my little knowledge small clinics are best for routine/general care. H > getting their basic care met at the most local/least complicated level poss > there's anything that warrants it. Unfortunately it's near impossible to fi > in my city, so it's off to the hospital megacorp I go.

As for socialized vs private -- you're in Spain, right? I also know absolut > would definitely have a better take there.

The place I work for is very small but also highly specialized. It definitivelydoes not count as general care.

The independent offices I think of when I mention quality independent care are the sort that have four doctor tops, or a single one. THese offices are very agile, and employees can devote significant time to each case because the patient per employee ratio is very favorable. Doctors themselves have an emotional investment in these positions that they don t have in ah hospital megacorp.

I had a talk about this with one of the last two independent thrauma/orthopediaDoctors in my province. When a patient asks for an appointment at his office,
the patient has explecitly decided to trust this particular Doctor. That is completely different than a patient who is sent to your office at a megahospital by an insurance company. That patient does not care particularly about you and if the Doctor had been somebody else he would not have cared at all. In the end of the day, the first patient feels like it is a bigger responsibility, and the second is just a number in a machine in which the doctor is also just a number.

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Moondog to Arelor on Mon Jun 19 2023 01:50 pm

At a previous job the HR department was constantly changing health insurance > carriers. Eventually they went to an HMO plan, where the plan only paid if
you went to "in system" health providers. If an employee went outside the n > work in order to stay with an established practioner, the amount paid would
be way less or non-existant. The "preferred" doctors were an hour to 90 minute's drive away, and overbooked. Schedu ling an appointment meant you could wait 6 months to a year.

Yeah, insurance that comes with the workplace is ok to have, but one should notlean on it. It depends on the particular workplace, but the tendency is for
insurances to get involved in bidding wars with firms so they can sell them insurance packages for the employees for cheap. The problem is some of the offers are so cheap that they need to cut corners in order to maintain the low prices.

Job here comes with health insurance but I have a separate insurance contract on my own.

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: poindexter FORTRAN to MRO on Mon Jun 19 2023 07:59 am

They get paid in countries with socialized medicare. Most socialized
countries have a national health service and for-profit care for people
who can/want to subscribe to them, but people who can't afford for-pay
care still get taken care of...

The problem I have with socialized healthcare is that what you get is usually the illusion of service instead of actual service.

See, if you have a trapped nerve here, waiting list for treatment in socializedhealthcare exceeds the year. Waiting list in local hospital megacorp is four
months. Waiting list in a local small office is a week *tops*.

(Recently we have seen a small spike to two weeks because some employees at clinics are taking holidays, and this is regarded as a crisis).

I am very sore with the fictitious idea that having socialized healthcare makesthe poor provided because I have friends who are very sick and the system is
fucking killing them. There is no other way to put it in words. Sure, the general idea on the street is that all is ok because George is seeing a Doctor at the social hospital who will get his cancer controlled. WHhy they don t tellyou is they are passing George from an office to the other instead of getting
him fixed because they don t care what happens to George, or have instructions to delay patients with low chances because cancer units are overloaded.

It is fucking perverse because every fucking body is forced to pay for this killing machine, a number of people believes the killing machine is actually a healing machine and would die defending it, and if you want something else you are still forced to support this crap.

It is a propaganda stunt, just like when they announced free intercity bus transport for helping the poor get from their homes to work. ANybody who does not look closely into the matter will think the govenmenmt is great because they have allowed poor people to move to the office and back despite the raising fuel prices. It is only if you try to get a trip yourself that you realize the number of circuits which benefit from free rides is small as to be useless - ie. no real worker will ever benefit from it. And yet, people believes the poor are provided for.

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: esc to MRO on Mon Jun 19 2023 08:51 pm

None of us have a choice. We all buy into some insurance plan that makes all

Fun fact, receptionist at $job gets asked a lot questions like:

"Do you know if $doctor works with $insurance? I am looking for an insurance plan but I only want one who works with my regular doctors."

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: MRO to esc on Tue Jun 20 2023 09:02 am

insurance is bullshit. you are getting fucked in the ass no matter what. it's more important to stay healthy so you do not get to the point where you >

It.... depends.

Statistically speaking, you are more likely to come out ahead if you save the money instead of placing it in insurance policies, I agree. The insurance game is all about calculating that yourr risk is ten and billing you fifteen.

But then insurances have some added value. ie. if there is a power surge that fries your home s electrical wiring, chances are a good insurance company will send you a competent experienced electrician, whereas if you had to find one you could end up with a cokehead doing your wiring and you would only learn your mistake when it all fried again.

IMO insurances only make sense when you have a whole lot of insurance policies with the same provider, so you get special prices because you are ordering in bulk. Then you can use the insurance company as a single provider for a lot of house / car / pet / business needs.

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Tracker1 wrote to Gamgee <=-

Understood. It's really quite different then, because our Constitution
is very difficult to change, and rarely is. That's a good thing.

It's really not *THAT* difficult, it's just people are so divided
at this point, and usually on issues that are less important. In
that those issues that could gain popular support just don't.

It is indeed difficult. Yes, the current division in the country
probably makes that even more so. But for context, there were only 12 amendments done in the 20th century, when the division was probably much
less than it is today. So I'll stand by my original statement.



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Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: Tracker1 to anthk on Wed Jun 21 2023 10:44 pm

Also, extension patents on medications, if allowed should be limited to maybe5 years.

This links with a serious problem nobody talks about, which is the manipulationof availability of medicines and substitutives.

Afaik in Spain prices of medicines are regulated. I don't know the details but the idea is if I launch some med I cannot arbitrarily raise the price. As time goes by, inflation catches up. At some point it is not profitable to keep selling the med so I invent a reason why the med is bad and withdraw it from the market, then launch a new one to replace it.

Which sucks because one day you need some med for your dog and you find out they have withdrawn it and the substitute just sucks, or is more expensive.

This applies to dietary suplements. I have a strong suspicion that Serrapeptasein Europe was killed because some pharma wanted to sell some new generation
blood thinner. There was an official reason why Serrapeptase was killed (lack of evidence of effectiveness) but everybody knows the official reason was bullshit.

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Tracker1 to MRO on Wed Jun 21 2023 11:07 pm

you can just take out from your savings. or just don't pay the bill.
if had i put as much money as i paid into insurance into my 401k, and then did my regular personal and company contribution AND invested it well i'd have a small fortune.

Depending on the state you're in, they can put a judgement against you and have it deducted from your paycheck, *AND* add it late payment penalties as well as relatively high (think credit card level) interest. This can even happen after your debt was sold by the original carrier.

if the person is in such a sad state where they cant afford anything, they'll just write it off eventually.
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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Arelor to esc on Thu Jun 22 2023 06:18 am

Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: esc to MRO on Mon Jun 19 2023 08:51 pm

None of us have a choice. We all buy into some insurance plan that makes all

Fun fact, receptionist at $job gets asked a lot questions like:

"Do you know if $doctor works with $insurance? I am looking for an insurance plan but I only want one who works with my regular doctors."

well if you get insurance from your workplace they either have it in paper or on a website where you can look up the in network doctors.

that's over here in the usa.
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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Arelor to MRO on Thu Jun 22 2023 06:32 am

Statistically speaking, you are more likely to come out ahead if you save the money instead of placing it in insurance policies, I agree. The insurance game is all about calculating that yourr risk is ten and billing you fifteen.

But then insurances have some added value. ie. if there is a power surge that fries your home s electrical wiring, chances are a good insurance company will send you a competent experienced electrician, whereas if you had to find one you could end up with a cokehead doing your wiring and you would only learn your mistake when it all fried again.

over here they would just have an inspector come by and look. and he would be low paid, like around 17 bucks an hour.

for electrical work you need permits and a certified professional to do most of it.
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Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: Gamgee to Phigan on Wed Jun 21 2023 06:58 pm

Again, at least in the USA, nurses, teachers, and first-responders are pretty much universally considered to be under-paid.

Maybe it depends what part of the country you're in? On the West
end of the country, once you are a Registered Nurse (or RN),
you're making at least 100k. Maybe that's "under-paid" these
days.

Underpaid? An RN in New York is worth min 80,000 to 120,000. A NYC EMT get 100,000 as do Teachers. I agree nobodys getting rich but under-paid? I'd call it earning an honest living.


|12HusTler
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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Gamgee to Hustler on Wed Jun 21 2023 07:00 pm

People in the US are better off without. If you don't/can't buy insurance
you are insured anyway. If you don't have a drivers licence they can't
give you a ticket. There's a lot to be said about having nothing. Can't
afford food? No problem, you get free food. If you work then you're
resposible for everthing. No free food, no free housing, no free medical.
Why do you think people want to live in America?

I like to think it's because of the freedom, not the free shit.

There's even more free stuff in other countries. There are other countries that have socialized healthcare, 'free' college education, and I've heard some also have a 'basic income', where people get some amount of money per month from the government so they at least have some income even if they're out of work. Of course, that's all funded by taxes, so taxes tend to be higher in those countries..

Although the US has some amount of that, I had the impression that the US had some of the lowest amount of 'free' stuff.. Welfare & financial assistance etc. are supposed to be used for people who are really in need, though I know some people take advantage of it.

Nightfox

Re: Re: Your Political Leanings?
By: Hustler to Phigan on Thu Jun 22 2023 07:55 am

Underpaid? An RN in New York is worth min 80,000 to 120,000. A NYC EMT

get
100,000 as do Teachers. I agree nobodys getting rich but under-paid? I'd call it earning an honest living.

a rn can also join the military and be bumped up to a high rank that would take years to claim and the pay would follow.

OR they can travel around and get insane money.

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People in the US are better off without. If you don't/can't buy insurance you are insured anyway. If you don't have a drivers
licence they can't give you a ticket. There's a lot to be said
about having nothing. Can't afford food? No problem, you get free
food. If you work then you're resposible for everthing. No free
food, no free housing, no free medical. Why do you think people
want to live in America?

I like to think it's because of the freedom, not the free shit.

I am sure that is true for many of us, but the louder ones among us seem to prefer the latter (although they get angry when you point that out to
them!).


* SLMR 2.1a * Hah! If only BELL knew what I was do...¨Ä NO CARRIER

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Insurance companies should not own portions of providers or pharma and
should be required to act as a fiduciary on behalf of their clients.

+1 -- this is a big issue.

vaccine. Would also roll back advertising rules to early 70's standards.

Again, +1. Just about every commerical break on TV now has at least 2
drug ads in them. They are making a lot of money to afford all the ads.


* SLMR 2.1a * Ultimate office automation: networked coffee machines.

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■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP

There's even more free stuff in other countries. There are other countries

h

have socialized healthcare, 'free' college education, and I've heard some

ls

have a 'basic income', where people get some amount of money per month from

h

government so they at least have some income even if they're out of work. Of urse, that's all funded by taxes, so taxes tend to be higher in those

ountrie

Those countries also likely regulate who can get the free stuff more, and
also have tighter border protection. So, if you are looking for free stuff
in a country that will let you in, you have to settle for the USA.


* SLMR 2.1a * Software Independent: Won't work with ANY software.

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Nightfox wrote to Gamgee <=-

People in the US are better off without. If you don't/can't buy insurance
you are insured anyway. If you don't have a drivers licence they can't
give you a ticket. There's a lot to be said about having nothing. Can't
afford food? No problem, you get free food. If you work then you're
resposible for everthing. No free food, no free housing, no free medical.
Why do you think people want to live in America?

I like to think it's because of the freedom, not the free shit.

There's even more free stuff in other countries. There are other countries that have socialized healthcare, 'free' college
education, and I've heard some also have a 'basic income', where
people get some amount of money per month from the government so
they at least have some income even if they're out of work. Of
course, that's all funded by taxes, so taxes tend to be higher in
those countries..

Although the US has some amount of that, I had the impression
that the US had some of the lowest amount of 'free' stuff..
Welfare & financial assistance etc. are supposed to be used for
people who are really in need, though I know some people take
advantage of it.

No argument with any of that.... I think you may have misinterpreted my
answer above. I was answering the other guy's question about "why do
you think people want to live in America"?

My answer was that they desire the *FREEDOM* that America offers... ;-)



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Dumas Walker wrote to GAMGEE <=-

People in the US are better off without. If you don't/can't buy insurance you are insured anyway. If you don't have a drivers
licence they can't give you a ticket. There's a lot to be said
about having nothing. Can't afford food? No problem, you get free
food. If you work then you're resposible for everthing. No free
food, no free housing, no free medical. Why do you think people
want to live in America?

I like to think it's because of the freedom, not the free shit.

I am sure that is true for many of us, but the louder ones among
us seem to prefer the latter (although they get angry when you
point that out to them!).

100% agree. ;-)



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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: MRO to Arelor on Thu Jun 22 2023 08:49 am

well if you get insurance from your workplace they either have it in paper o

Yeah, but a number of people finds it easier to just ask than to look it up. Specially because a number of insurance companies don't give you very up to date information.

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: MRO to Arelor on Thu Jun 22 2023 08:51 am

over here they would just have an inspector come by and look. and he would b >
for electrical work you need permits and a certified professional to do most

Yeah, you need a certified pro unless you want to void your "warranties".

Insurance companies here have their own certified personal and in some cases you can hire the insurance company at a discount for fixing stuff that is not covered.

If my well pumps go dead and I am working away from home and my regular electrician is unreachable, I can phone the insurance company and have them send somebody to fix it knowing that I am not forcing my mother to deal with a random weirdo.

And if your horses decide to befriend the neighbor's donkey and tear down the neighbor's fences in order to reach him, a number of insurance companies will send a crew to repair the fence instead of assesing the value of the fence and paying a compensation to the customer whose fence was destroyed by insured horses - and yes I have experience with this one.

I don't think most insurance policies are "mathematically" sensible - they bankon the fact that if a given risk will cost 10 to repair, they will bill you 15
multiplied by the chance you will have to fill such claim. Some insurance companies bank on massive economies of scale, and then this intriduces a game change - something that would cost you 10 to fix may cost the insurance company2 to fix, so they can bill you 8 only and still make a profit . I think the
real reason why most people buys insurance is because they want to play reverselottery: if a random event happens that cost way more than they would be able
to fix with money, they exchange the insurance ticket for a solution. It is likely a mathematically bad solution (because the value of the insurance policyis statistically negative most often than not) but I can't say it is a bad planin practice.

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Dumas Walker to NIGHTFOX on Thu Jun 22 2023 03:22 pm

Those countries also likely regulate who can get the free stuff more, and also have tighter border protection. So, if you are looking for free stuff in a country that will let you in, you have to settle for the USA.

Or you can be Spain and fund the free stuff with endless debt. Or try and get the EU to cover your expenses. EU had to release a non-small fund to rescue ourbanking system back in the day and we pump a lot of EU money into handouts.

I get the impresion that countries with "free stuff" which have it be sustainable are the ones who have some national industry which is rich, powerful anc capable of pulling its own weight and then use its surplus money to fund the "free stuf". A bit like my village (which has a small timber industry whose benefits are used to fix the roads) but on big scale. ie. I think in Norway the retirement funds are covered by the fossil fuel industry.

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My answer was that they desire the *FREEDOM* that America offers... ;-)

Also, no other country has successfully made American style barbecue. If you want good pork ribs you gotta come to the USA.

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esc wrote to Gamgee <=-

My answer was that they desire the *FREEDOM* that America offers... ;-)

Also, no other country has successfully made American style
barbecue. If you want good pork ribs you gotta come to the USA.

Absolutely! On my menu for the weekend!



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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Arelor to MRO on Thu Jun 22 2023 07:49 pm

Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: MRO to Arelor on Thu Jun 22 2023 08:49 am

well if you get insurance from your workplace they either have it in paper o

Yeah, but a number of people finds it easier to just ask than to look it up. Specially because a number of insurance companies don't give you very up to date information.

on their websites they should have the most up to date info, or over the phone they can provide it.
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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Arelor to MRO on Thu Jun 22 2023 08:09 pm

Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: MRO to Arelor on Thu Jun 22 2023 08:51 am

over here they would just have an inspector come by and look. and he would b

for electrical work you need permits and a certified professional to do most

Yeah, you need a certified pro unless you want to void your "warranties".

Insurance companies here have their own certified personal and in some cases you can hire the insurance company at a discount for fixing stuff that is not covered.

in the usa the insurance either cuts you the check or denies you. they dont go all out and get someone there to repair it.
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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Dumas Walker to TRACKER1 on Thu Jun 22 2023 03:12 pm

Insurance companies should not own portions of providers or pharma and should be required to act as a fiduciary on behalf of their clients.

+1 -- this is a big issue.

vaccine. Would also roll back advertising rules to early 70's standards.

Again, +1. Just about every commerical break on TV now has at least 2
drug ads in them. They are making a lot of money to afford all the ads.

* SLMR 2.1a * Ultimate office automation: networked coffee machines.

Drug research and testing is expensive. The cost is not only recovered in the price of drugs, but also the cost of further research is offset through the price of existing products.

---
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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Arelor to MRO on Thu Jun 22 2023 08:09 pm

Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: MRO to Arelor on Thu Jun 22 2023 08:51 am

over here they would just have an inspector come by and look. and he woul for electrical work you need permits and a certified professional to do m

Yeah, you need a certified pro unless you want to void your "warranties".

Insurance companies here have their own certified personal and in some cases you can hire the insurance company at a discount for fixing stuff that is no covered.

If my well pumps go dead and I am working away from home and my regular electrician is unreachable, I can phone the insurance company and have them send somebody to fix it knowing that I am not forcing my mother to deal with random weirdo.

And if your horses decide to befriend the neighbor's donkey and tear down th neighbor's fences in order to reach him, a number of insurance companies wil send a crew to repair the fence instead of assesing the value of the fence a paying a compensation to the customer whose fence was destroyed by insured horses - and yes I have experience with this one.

I don't think most insurance policies are "mathematically" sensible - they b multiplied by the chance you will have to fill such claim. Some insurance companies bank on massive economies of scale, and then this intriduces a gam change - something that would cost you 10 to fix may cost the insurance comp real reason why most people buys insurance is because they want to play reve to fix with money, they exchange the insurance ticket for a solution. It is likely a mathematically bad solution (because the value of the insurance pol

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

Several years ago a large tree branch fell on my car's roof, causing damage. It was during an icy rain storm, and the ice buildup broke the branch loose. When I reported it to the insurance company, they suggested a body shop. I learned it was their choice not because of their quality of work, but due to their lower prices.

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Arelor to Dumas Walker on Thu Jun 22 2023 08:23 pm

Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Dumas Walker to NIGHTFOX on Thu Jun 22 2023 03:22 pm

Those countries also likely regulate who can get the free stuff more, and also have tighter border protection. So, if you are looking for free stu in a country that will let you in, you have to settle for the USA.

Or you can be Spain and fund the free stuff with endless debt. Or try and ge the EU to cover your expenses. EU had to release a non-small fund to rescue

I get the impresion that countries with "free stuff" which have it be sustainable are the ones who have some national industry which is rich, powerful anc capable of pulling its own weight and then use its surplus mone to fund the "free stuf". A bit like my village (which has a small timber industry whose benefits are used to fix the roads) but on big scale. ie. I think in Norway the retirement funds are covered by the fossil fuel industry

--
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The tax rate is probably much higher too. "Free" comes out of everyone
's pockets

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Moondog to Arelor on Fri Jun 23 2023 08:40 am

Several years ago a large tree branch fell on my car's roof, causing damage. It was during an icy rain storm, and the ice buildup broke the branch loose. When I reported it to the insurance company, they suggested a body shop. I learned it was their choice not because of their quality of work, but due to their lower prices.

yeah they work out deals.
i also had a window broken and they recommended a place and i just paid with cash with no insurance coverage. it was lower than my deductable.
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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Moondog to Arelor on Fri Jun 23 2023 02:09 pm

The tax rate is probably much higher too. "Free" comes out of everyone
's pockets

it is. and spidy told me that a lot of people are on 'pensions' from the govt. but they make them go to parks and clean up garbage so atleast there's that. ---
■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Or you can be Spain and fund the free stuff with endless debt.

I suspect that is where a lot of the US debt comes from, although it is certainly not the only source.

I get the impresion that countries with "free stuff" which have it be sustainable are the ones who have some national industry which is rich, powerful anc capable of pulling its own weight and then use its surplus money to fund the "free stuf". A bit like my village (which has a small timber industry whose benefits are used to fix the roads) but on big scale. ie. I think in Norway the retirement funds are covered by the fossil fuel industry.

I wonder how Norway will fund it once everything goes electric?


* SLMR 2.1a * War is God's way of teaching us geography.

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Again, +1. Just about every commerical break on TV now has at least 2 drug ads in them. They are making a lot of money to afford all the ads.

Drug research and testing is expensive. The cost is not only recovered in the price of drugs, but also the cost of further research is offset through the price of existing products.

Advertising is also expensive, so you would think they would cut costs somewhere. R&D has always been expensive, but they used to be able to sell their product by having a good-enough product that doctor's would prescribe
and suggest them.

They need to get us back to that.


* SLMR 2.1a * Perhaps this situation requires a more Klingon response.

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it is. and spidy told me that a lot of people are on 'pensions' from the

ovt.

but they make them go to parks and clean up garbage so atleast there's that.

During the Depression, our country came up with a lot of similar programs to put people to work. They need to bring some of those programs back.


* SLMR 2.1a * I forget the dream, but I'm missing a pajama button...

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Dumas Walker to ARELOR on Fri Jun 23 2023 05:56 pm

Or you can be Spain and fund the free stuff with endless debt.

I suspect that is where a lot of the US debt comes from, although it is certainly not the only source.

I get the impresion that countries with "free stuff" which have it be sustainable are the ones who have some national industry which is rich, powerful anc capable of pulling its own weight and then use its surplus mo to fund the "free stuf". A bit like my village (which has a small timber industry whose benefits are used to fix the roads) but on big scale. ie. I think in Norway the retirement funds are covered by the fossil fuel indust

I wonder how Norway will fund it once everything goes electric?

* SLMR 2.1a * War is God's way of teaching us geography.

Switch over from taxing the fuel and base a tax on mileage.

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Dumas Walker to MOONDOG on Sat Jun 24 2023 08:53 am

Again, +1. Just about every commerical break on TV now has at least 2 drug ads in them. They are making a lot of money to afford all the ads

Drug research and testing is expensive. The cost is not only recovered in price of drugs, but also the cost of further research is offset through th price of existing products.

Advertising is also expensive, so you would think they would cut costs somewhere. R&D has always been expensive, but they used to be able to sell their product by having a good-enough product that doctor's would prescribe and suggest them.

They need to get us back to that.

* SLMR 2.1a * Perhaps this situation requires a more Klingon response.

Advertising costs a fraction of R&D. When it comes time to advertise, the product is complete and tested. It's a sure thing as opposed to whipping together a formula or separating a chemical compound, then running it through chemical and animal testing before being allowed to test it on humans.

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Sat Jun 24 2023 08:58 am

it is. and spidy told me that a lot of people are on 'pensions' from the

ovt.

but they make them go to parks and clean up garbage so atleast there's tha

During the Depression, our country came up with a lot of similar programs to put people to work. They need to bring some of those programs back.

* SLMR 2.1a * I forget the dream, but I'm missing a pajama button...

Several of those programs were busy work as opposed to fixing and improving infrastructure. The parks programs had little to do with conservation or scientific reasoning. Native species of plants and animals were killed or destroyed because a landscaper was put in charge of making areas look pretty.
Jobs were created by handing out shovels rather than training people to do other work than busy work created by the government.

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Dumas Walker to MOONDOG on Sat Jun 24 2023 08:53 am

Again, +1. Just about every commerical break on TV now has at least 2 drug ads in them. They are making a lot of money to afford all the ads.

Drug research and testing is expensive. The cost is not only recovered in the price of drugs, but also the cost of further research is offset through the price of existing products.

Advertising is also expensive, so you would think they would cut costs somewhere. R&D has always been expensive, but they used to be able to sell their product by having a good-enough product that doctor's would prescribe and suggest them.

They need to get us back to that.

bribing politicians seems to be the most expensive.
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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Sat Jun 24 2023 08:58 am

it is. and spidy told me that a lot of people are on 'pensions' from the

ovt.

but they make them go to parks and clean up garbage so atleast there's that.

During the Depression, our country came up with a lot of similar programs to put people to work. They need to bring some of those programs back.

many years ago when our economy was bad, i needed to find work and i was competing against these welfare to work people. there was no indeed back then, just the dept of workforce dev jobsite and monster. even though i was qualified i never got a chance. these people were first choice and the businesses got money from the state to hire them.

eventually i got a low paying job and i was working with these people. they were horrible. i spent all my time fixing all the electronics they broke.
why hire 2 people that can't do anything and then hire another to fix their fuck ups? i guess the money was good.

apparently in wisconsin we have this program called wisconsin works aka w-2. these people have to have 80 hrs of work of work training for childless adults.

400 dollars of every second goes to medicade. 6 working people support 1 medicade person with their taxes.

so wisconsin was a welfare magnet in the 70s and 80s and it just can't work through these problems.
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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Moondog to Dumas Walker on Sat Jun 24 2023 08:59 am

Or you can be Spain and fund the free stuff with endless debt.

I suspect that is where a lot of the US debt comes from, although it is certainly not the only source.

I get the impresion that countries with "free stuff" which have it be sustainable are the ones who have some national industry which is rich, powerful anc capable of pulling its own weight and then use its surplus mo to fund the "free stuf". A bit like my village (which has a small timber industry whose benefits are used to fix the roads) but on big scale. ie. I think in Norway the retirement funds are covered by the fossil fuel indust

I wonder how Norway will fund it once everything goes electric?

they make a ton taxing gas. they also have a 20% flat tax on income so maybe if they ditched that they can get more out of people.
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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: esc to Gamgee on Fri Jun 23 2023 01:41 am

Also, no other country has successfully made American style barbecue. If you want good pork ribs you gotta come to the USA.

What if you want the best lamb? :)

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Dumas Walker wrote to MRO <=-

During the Depression, our country came up with a lot of similar
programs to put people to work. They need to bring some of those
programs back.

Ahhh, yes. The programs that actually lengthened the the Depression.


... A hundred years from now, none of us will give a damn.
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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Dr. What to Dumas Walker on Sun Jun 25 2023 08:52 am

Dumas Walker wrote to MRO <=-

During the Depression, our country came up with a lot of similar programs to put people to work. They need to bring some of those programs back.

Ahhh, yes. The programs that actually lengthened the the Depression.

well after looking it up i see

"The unemployment rate in 1935 was at a staggering 20 percent. The WPA was designed to provide relief for the unemployed by providing jobs and income for millions of Americans. At its height in late 1938, more than 3.3 million Americans worked for the WPA.

The WPA-which in 1939 was renamed the Work Projects Administration-employed mostly unskilled men to carry out public works infrastructure projects. They built more than 4,000 new school buildings, erected 130 new hospitals, laid roughly 9,000 miles of storm drains and sewer lines, built 29,000 new bridges, constructed 150 new airfields, paved or repaired 280,000 miles of roads and planted 24 million trees to alleviate loss of topsoil during the Dust Bowl."

whats so bad about that?

My grandma never mentioned the depression. our family were hardworking people and planted gardens, picked up cow manure in fields and my great grandfather
worked in a mine. my grandmother was born in 1924
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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: MRO to Moondog on Sun Jun 25 2023 03:36 am

Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Moondog to Dumas Walker on Sat Jun 24 2023 08:59 am

Or you can be Spain and fund the free stuff with endless debt.

I suspect that is where a lot of the US debt comes from, although it i certainly not the only source.

I get the impresion that countries with "free stuff" which have it b sustainable are the ones who have some national industry which is ri powerful anc capable of pulling its own weight and then use its surp mo to fund the "free stuf". A bit like my village (which has a small timber industry whose benefits are used to fix the roads) but on big scale. ie. I think in Norway the retirement funds are covered by the fossil fuel indust

I wonder how Norway will fund it once everything goes electric?

they make a ton taxing gas. they also have a 20% flat tax on income so mayb

That's why i said tax them by mileage. If you can't tax the fuel, tax the roa d. The people who use more fuel tend to be the folks piling on miles, so the folk with better fuel mileage will no longer experience the savings from vehic le sipping cars.

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Moondog to MRO on Sun Jun 25 2023 02:59 pm

they make a ton taxing gas. they also have a 20% flat tax on income so mayb

That's why i said tax them by mileage. If you can't tax the fuel, tax the roa d. The people who use more fuel tend to be the folks piling on miles, so the folk with better fuel mileage will no longer experience the savings from vehic le sipping cars.

I don't think people in norway drive that much or that far.
i tried looking it up and i see they also own a huge amount of EV's now.
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What if you want the best lamb? :)

Hmm, Greece? Turkey? Dunno :P what's your suggestion?

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: esc to Phigan on Mon Jun 26 2023 01:45 am

What if you want the best lamb? :)

Hmm, Greece? Turkey? Dunno :P what's your suggestion?

I didn't have one at the time, but I just remembered.. most of our lamb comes from New Zealand. That place is pretty nice, I hear.

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MRO wrote to Dr. What <=-

Ahhh, yes. The programs that actually lengthened the the Depression.

well after looking it up i see

Since, you didn't quote a source, I'll assume that it's the usual propaganda pushed on us since elementary schoo.

"The unemployment rate in 1935 was at a staggering 20 percent. The WPA was designed to provide relief for the unemployed by providing jobs and income for millions of Americans. At its height in late 1938, more than 3.3 million Americans worked for the WPA.

First, all programs like this usually have the OPPOSITE impact of what they intend. Second, this was a program intended to fix the problem that the Regressives caused in the first place.

You can think of it has "drilling another hole in the bottom of the boat so that the water coming in from the first hole can drain out."

The WPA-which in 1939 was renamed the Work Projects Administration-employed mostly unskilled men to carry out public works infrastructure projects.

My grandparents mentioned it because they lived through it. The sidewalks around their house had "WPA" stamped on it, so I got a first hand education in what WPA was.

It was the gov't using our tax dollars poorly - as usual. WPA built a great deal of useless infrastructure and, in many cases, built it shoddily. In other words, it was a waste of money that made someone feel good.

whats so bad about that?

Because there was no demand for any of it.

And what happens when the gov't spends lots of tax dollars on what the market should be doing? The market **doesn't** spend money.

Thomas Sowell has some really good books detailing this topic. People have made many videos of his works on YouTube. Also, the YouTube channel "Founding Values" have been putting many of the Hillsdale college videos on this topic on their channel.


... You're always seated by a crying child during long flights.
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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Dr. What to MRO on Mon Jun 26 2023 07:26 am

Ahhh, yes. The programs that actually lengthened the the Depression.

well after looking it up i see

Since, you didn't quote a source, I'll assume that it's the usual propaganda

sorry i'm not an anal debate fag, so i dont post sources much.
i just google shit.

it wasnt from some propaganda site.
just look up the words and you will find it.

My grandparents mentioned it because they lived through it. The sidewalks around their house had "WPA" stamped on it, so I got a first hand education in what WPA was.

so the sidewalks got fixed! AH HAH!
i grew up in an old neighborhood. never saw any wpa stamps anywhere.

It was the gov't using our tax dollars poorly - as usual. WPA built a great

we needed the infrastrure.

deal of useless infrastructure and, in many cases, built it shoddily. In other words, it was a waste of money that made someone feel good.

it was shoddy? no different than now then, right?

Because there was no demand for any of it.

so people got jobs when they didnt have it and got paid.
whats bad about that.
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Advertising is also expensive, so you would think they would cut costs somewhere. R&D has always been expensive, but they used to be able to

ell

their product by having a good-enough product that doctor's would

rescribe

and suggest them.

They need to get us back to that.

bribing politicians seems to be the most expensive.

Thanks, I left that cost out. In many cases, I think you might be right, especially when you figure in things that are not offered as an outright
bribe but that are certainly used to gain political favor.


* SLMR 2.1a * ....we came in?

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eventually i got a low paying job and i was working with these people. they

e

horrible. i spent all my time fixing all the electronics they broke.
why hire 2 people that can't do anything and then hire another to fix their

u

ups? i guess the money was good.

Most of the programs I am thinking of (really all of them) didn't usually involve skilled labor like electronics work. I would expect that to be a potential fiasco as your skilled folks are more likely to be working and
less likely to be a part of the program.

Sounds like someone/group took those programs a little too far.


* SLMR 2.1a * Isn't this where....

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Also, no other country has successfully made American style barbecue. If

o

want good pork ribs you gotta come to the USA.

What if you want the best lamb? :)

Owensboro, KY. Assuming you mean barbecue, that is.


* SLMR 2.1a * Politically incorrect...and proud of it!!!

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The WPA-which in 1939 was renamed the Work Projects Administration-employed

os

ly unskilled men to carry out public works infrastructure projects. They built >ore than 4,000 new school buildings, erected 130 new hospitals, laid roughly

,

00 miles of storm drains and sewer lines, built 29,000 new bridges,

onstructed

150 new airfields, paved or repaired 280,000 miles of roads and planted 24

ill

on trees to alleviate loss of topsoil during the Dust Bowl."

whats so bad about that?

IMHO, nothing. It is better than just having them sit on their asses.
Some people talk bad about WPA projects, and maybe some where crap, but
some of what they built lasted quite a long while.

OTOH, we had an office tower here that was finished by "professionals" c1972 that was imploded before COVID because it was not well built and the upkeep costs had got too costly. It became a problem at around 40 years old, and
was torn down around 45 years old.

My grandma never mentioned the depression. our family were hardworking people d planted gardens, picked up cow manure in fields and my great grandfather worked in a mine. my grandmother was born in 1924

My father's mother was born around 1905. She mentioned it a lot. Although
my father was born after it, I think he heard about it a lot from them (his father was born in 1898).


* SLMR 2.1a * "Mmmmmmmm.....doughnuts."

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: esc to Phigan on Mon Jun 26 2023 01:45 am

What if you want the best lamb? :)

Hmm, Greece? Turkey? Dunno :P what's your suggestion?

All you'll get from Greece or Turkey is greasy turkey.

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: MRO to Dr. What on Mon Jun 26 2023 11:52 am

Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Dr. What to MRO on Mon Jun 26 2023 07:26 am

Ahhh, yes. The programs that actually lengthened the the Depression.

well after looking it up i see

Since, you didn't quote a source, I'll assume that it's the usual propaga

sorry i'm not an anal debate fag, so i dont post sources much.
i just google shit.

it wasnt from some propaganda site.
just look up the words and you will find it.

My grandparents mentioned it because they lived through it. The sidewalk around their house had "WPA" stamped on it, so I got a first hand educati in what WPA was.

so the sidewalks got fixed! AH HAH!
i grew up in an old neighborhood. never saw any wpa stamps anywhere.

It was the gov't using our tax dollars poorly - as usual. WPA built a gr

we needed the infrastrure.

deal of useless infrastructure and, in many cases, built it shoddily. In other words, it was a waste of money that made someone feel good.

it was shoddy? no different than now then, right?

Because there was no demand for any of it.

so people got jobs when they didnt have it and got paid.
whats bad about that.

The busy work was no knowledge needed grunt work. The imperative was to get people working, instead of being quality related work.

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MRO wrote to Dr. What <=-

So you say this:

sorry i'm not an anal debate fag, so i dont post sources much.
i just google shit.

Then contridict yourself:

it wasnt from some propaganda site.

so the sidewalks got fixed! AH HAH!

No. The sidewalks got BUILT through a section that had NO HOUSES and there was no plan to put houses there for at least a few decades. Oh, and the sidewalks were shoddily made. Only a few of the original concrete blocks remained when the houses actually went in. So someone had to pay for the sidewalks a second time. (Someone = taxpayers, of course.)

we needed the infrastrure.

No. We didn't. That was appearant to anyone who actually checked things out instead of just listening to the propaganda.

so people got jobs when they didnt have it and got paid.
whats bad about that.

People would have gotten other jobs. But, once again, the gov't interfered and caused the jobs that would have gotten created to not be created.

Hence the prolonging of the Depression.


... I have seen the data...now bring me some I can agree with
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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Mon Jun 26 2023 03:41 pm

Most of the programs I am thinking of (really all of them) didn't usually involve skilled labor like electronics work. I would expect that to be a

well it wasnt really skilled. they were just stuffing boards.
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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Mon Jun 26 2023 04:21 pm

My grandma never mentioned the depression. our family were hardworking people d planted gardens, picked up cow manure in fields and my great grandfather worked in a mine. my grandmother was born in 1924

My father's mother was born around 1905. She mentioned it a lot. Although my father was born after it, I think he heard about it a lot from them (his father was born in 1898).

my mom's side of the family came from hungary and they were tough people.
the depression was probably just a bump in the road to them.
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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Moondog to MRO on Mon Jun 26 2023 10:41 pm

so people got jobs when they didnt have it and got paid.
whats bad about that.

The busy work was no knowledge needed grunt work. The imperative was to get people working, instead of being quality related work.

it wasnt busy work. that work needed to be done.

and since when have we had quality infrastructure work?
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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Dr. What to MRO on Tue Jun 27 2023 07:46 am

sorry i'm not an anal debate fag, so i dont post sources much.
i just google shit.

Then contridict yourself:

it wasnt from some propaganda site.

so the sidewalks got fixed! AH HAH!

what?

No. The sidewalks got BUILT through a section that had NO HOUSES and there was no plan to put houses there for at least a few decades. Oh, and the sidewalks were shoddily made. Only a few of the original concrete blocks

sure they were. sure they were.

we needed the infrastrure.

No. We didn't. That was appearant to anyone who actually checked things out instead of just listening to the propaganda.

i didn't listen to it. i read it on history.com you're the guy obsessed with propaganda.

fuck off, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about anyways.

People would have gotten other jobs. But, once again, the gov't interfered and caused the jobs that would have gotten created to not be created.

they couldnt all be working dicks like your great grandmother.
some of them had to build roads, railroads and those sidewalks you love.

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Moondog to esc on Mon Jun 26 2023 10:35 pm

All you'll get from Greece or Turkey is greasy turkey.

Do they even HAVE turkeys in Turkey? I call false advertising.

Greasy turkey might be better than dry turkey, though, no?

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My father's mother was born around 1905. She mentioned it a lot. Although >> my father was born after it, I think he heard about it a lot from them (his >> father was born in 1898).

my mom's side of the family came from hungary and they were tough people.
the depression was probably just a bump in the road to them.

I would imagine that it would have affected persons who'd not been here as long, and were from tougher areas like Eastern Europe, differently than
people who'd been here long enough to take for granted that everything
would always be plentiful.

Although my grandparents lived through it, they were also rural and mostly
poor to being with. I think the people it really affected were in the
cities and likely had money to start.


* SLMR 2.1a * Dental plan...Lisa needs braces...dental plan...Lisa...

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: MRO to Tracker1 on Thu Jun 22 2023 08:47:36

Depending on the state you're in, they can put a judgement against you
and have it deducted from your paycheck, *AND* add it late payment
penalties as well as relatively high (think credit card level)
interest. This can even happen after your debt was sold by the
original carrier.

if the person is in such a sad state where they cant afford anything, they'll just write it off eventually.

Even if it's not on your credit report, collection agencies can still collect, and this can still include interest as well as direct payroll deductions before you even see your paycheck. There's some states that are allowing really predatory collection practices. It may not be on your credit report after 7 years, but it can definitely still be pretty bad.


--
Michael J. Ryan
+o roughneckbbs.com
tracker1@roughneckbbs.com

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Dumas Walker to TRACKER1 on Thu Jun 22 2023 15:12:00

vaccine. Would also roll back advertising rules to early 70's
standards.

Again, +1. Just about every commerical break on TV now has at least 2
drug ads in them. They are making a lot of money to afford all the ads.

Drug companies account for just over half of all ad spend in the US.


--
Michael J. Ryan
+o roughneckbbs.com
tracker1@roughneckbbs.com

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Moondog to Dumas Walker on Sat Jun 24 2023 19:20:00

Advertising costs a fraction of R&D. When it comes time to advertise, the product is complete and tested. It's a sure thing as opposed to whipping together a formula or separating a chemical compound, then running it through chemical and animal testing before being allowed to test it on humans.

You have that backwards... Advertising is the single biggest expense for pharma companies, a multiple of what is spent on R&D and has been for decades. For that matter, Pharma accounts for over half of ALL advertising dollars spent (billions a year) in the US.


--
Michael J. Ryan
+o roughneckbbs.com
tracker1@roughneckbbs.com

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Phigan to esc on Sun Jun 25 2023 06:53:21

What if you want the best lamb? :)

Arguably, the lamb would come from Australia... where it's prepared is a different subject.


--
Michael J. Ryan
+o roughneckbbs.com
tracker1@roughneckbbs.com

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Phigan to Moondog on Tue Jun 27 2023 01:27 pm

Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Moondog to esc on Mon Jun 26 2023 10:35 pm

All you'll get from Greece or Turkey is greasy turkey.

Do they even HAVE turkeys in Turkey? I call false advertising.

Greasy turkey might be better than dry turkey, though, no?

It's a play on words to remind one about area geography. There is a sea between Greece and Turkey

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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Tue Jun 27 2023 03:13 pm

My father's mother was born around 1905. She mentioned it a lot. Althoug >> my father was born after it, I think he heard about it a lot from them (h >> father was born in 1898).

my mom's side of the family came from hungary and they were tough people. the depression was probably just a bump in the road to them.

I would imagine that it would have affected persons who'd not been here as long, and were from tougher areas like Eastern Europe, differently than people who'd been here long enough to take for granted that everything
would always be plentiful.

Although my grandparents lived through it, they were also rural and mostly poor to being with. I think the people it really affected were in the cities and likely had money to start.

* SLMR 2.1a * Dental plan...Lisa needs braces...dental plan...Lisa...

I can see it being more of an urban problem versus a rural problem regarding getting fed. If you had land or orchards, you can harvest fruit and sell it.


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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Tracker1 to Moondog on Tue Jun 27 2023 10:40 pm

Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Moondog to Dumas Walker on Sat Jun 24 2023 19:20:00

Advertising costs a fraction of R&D. When it comes time to advertise, t product is complete and tested. It's a sure thing as opposed to whippin together a formula or separating a chemical compound, then running it through chemical and animal testing before being allowed to test it on humans.

You have that backwards... Advertising is the single biggest expense for pha the US.

--
Michael J. Ryan
+o roughneckbbs.com
tracker1@roughneckbbs.com

Research and development can take years, and a viable product that can pass test trails is not guaranteed. Advertising an existing drug is a sur thing. The price of research is offset on other drugs that sell.

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Dr. What wrote to Dumas Walker <=-

programs to put people to work. They need to bring some of those
programs back.

Ahhh, yes. The programs that actually lengthened the the Depression.

There's a lot more to it than that, but OK.



... It's a bold strategy, Cotton, let's see if it plays out for 'em...
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poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Dr. What <=-

Ahhh, yes. The programs that actually lengthened the the Depression.

There's a lot more to it than that, but OK.

Correct. There is a lot more to it than that.

But my point was: Elitists cause a problem, then those same Elitists try to fix the problem by doubling down on the things that caused the problem in the first place, making the problem even worse.

"In every disaster throughout American history, there always seems to be a man from Harvard in the middle of it." -Thomas Sowell


... The most expensive component is the one that breaks.
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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Dumas Walker to ARELOR on Fri Jun 23 2023 17:56:00

Thinking of Alaska and Oil income, they have a fund that generations income, which they use to py for public works, there's no state income tax, and they even pay citizens to live there. I like that.

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Coyo Stormcaller wrote to Dumas Walker <=-

Thinking of Alaska and Oil income, they have a fund that generations income, which they use to py for public works, there's no state income tax, and they even pay citizens to live there. I like that.

Yeah, but the cost of living for everyday items is incredibly high.



... Define an area as 'safe' and use it as an anchor
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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Coyo Stormcaller to Dumas Walker on Mon Oct 09 2023 08:18 pm

Thinking of Alaska and Oil income, they have a fund that generations income, which they use to py for public works, there's no state income tax, and they even pay citizens to live there. I like that.

So when do we leave? Can we get a car pool going? Or rent a bus? ;-)


|12HusTler


...Have you ever questioned the nature of your reality?
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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Coyo Stormcaller on Tue Oct 10 2023 05:32 am

Yeah, but the cost of living for everyday items is incredibly high.

I am starting to think that is what is gonna happen in most of the West short term.

Lots of people buying from me today have had issues because they didn't have money in the accounts linked to their electronic payment methods.

ie. "Sucks, I cannot send you a Bizum right now because I don't have any money in my bank account".

I hope it has been an statistic anomaly or something, but if so much people does not have much money in their account before the middle of the month we areso screwed.

--
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Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: Arelor to poindexter FORTRAN on Wed Oct 11 2023 06:10 pm

Re: Re: Your Political Leanin
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Coyo Stormcaller on Tue Oct 10 2023 05:32 am

Yeah, but the cost of living for everyday items is incredibly high.

I am starting to think that is what is gonna happen in most of the West short term.

Lots of people buying from me today have had issues because they didn't have money in the accounts linked to their electronic payment methods.

ie. "Sucks, I cannot send you a Bizum right now because I don't have any money in my bank account".

i just run up my credit cards. it's been hard living in build back better land. is biznum only in europe?

i have zelle, cashapp and i use google pay. google pay is pretty quick and easy but they keep changing the apps and interface.
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Hustler wrote to Coyo Stormcaller <=-

Thinking of Alaska and Oil income, they have a fund that generations income, which they use to py for public works, there's no state income tax, and they even pay citizens to live there. I like that.

So when do we leave? Can we get a car pool going? Or rent a bus? ;-)

We could start a climate-friendly colo facility with chilled ambient
air! And, keep our office warm in the process.




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