Microsoft has made some interesting announcements regarding their next version of Visual Studio (2015). Microsoft has announced that they will allow Apple iPhone/iPad apps and Android apps to be built for Windows: http://tcrn.ch/1JaMkXR

It sounds like Visual Studio 2015 will also allow developers to create apps for
iPhone/iPad and Android apps using C#:
http://bit.ly/1IpFK1w

This is interesting news. It's pretty cool, but I wonder if Microsoft will end
up shooting themselves in the foot by doing this. IBM did something similar in
the 90s by allowing OS/2 to run Windows 3.1 apps. Many software developers decided to just create Windows apps, since Windows was more popular.

Microsoft seems to be getting more and more cross-platform with their development tools. I've also heard that Microsoft is bringing Visual Studio to
Linux and Mac:
http://mashable.com/2015/04/29/visual-studio-code/

Nightfox

$ Nightfox was quoted saying . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Microsoft has made some interesting announcements regarding their next version of Visual Studio (2015). Microsoft has announced that they will allow Apple iPhone/iPad apps and Android apps to be built for Windows: http://tcrn.ch/1JaMkXR

It sounds like Visual Studio 2015 will also allow developers to create
apps for iPhone/iPad and Android apps using C#:
http://bit.ly/1IpFK1w

This is interesting news. It's pretty cool, but I wonder if Microsoft
will end up shooting themselves in the foot by doing this. IBM did
something similar in the 90s by allowing OS/2 to run Windows 3.1 apps.
Many software developers decided to just create Windows apps, since
Windows was more popular.

Microsoft seems to be getting more and more cross-platform with their development tools. I've also heard that Microsoft is bringing Visual
Studio to Linux and Mac:
http://mashable.com/2015/04/29/visual-studio-code/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Well I can say it's about time. I have a feeling they are working towards having Android apps running in Windows as well.

The only thing that would suck if you still need to pay for extra plugin's and features vs. Eclipse where they are all free. I know right now if you want
unit tests and and extra functionaly you have to get the Ultimate Edition
which is hugely expensive.

For C++ though I like CodeLite alot for cross development in Windows, Linux, OSX. It's a really nice IDE that gets better everyday. It also has some plugins for Astyle Source Formatting, and UnitTest++. All it needs now is a nice Code Coverage plugin.

|07M|11er|03cy|07ful Fate |08(|15hTc|08)|07

--- Enthral BBS v.634 (PI/2 Linux armv7l)
* Origin: haunting The chapel >>--> htc.zapto.org <--<< (46:1/140)

Re: Re: Microsoft cross-platform dev tools
By: Mercyful Fate to Nightfox on Thu Apr 30 2015 00:45:34

Well I can say it's about time. I have a feeling they are working towards having Android apps running in Windows as well.

I think the first article did mention they plan to let Android apps run on Windows devices (in addition to iOS apps).

The only thing that would suck if you still need to pay for extra plugin's and features vs. Eclipse where they are all free. I know right now if you want unit tests and and extra functionaly you have to get the Ultimate Edition which is hugely expensive.

Yeah, I'm disappointed that the 'pro' level Visual Studio has become so expensive. Just several years ago, you could buy Visual C++, Visual C#, etc. for around $110 each, or the entire Visual Studio for around $300-$500, if I remember right. At least Microsoft has the 'Community' edition of Visual Studio (formerly known as 'Express'), which is free.

Since the move to Android Studio though, Eclipse is no longer the official development platform for Android apps. Android Studio is now the official IDE for Android, and it's based on IntelliJ. I tend to like the IntelliJ UI better than Eclipse, although I don't know how good IntelliJ's plugin support is. I suppose a lot of Android developers could still use Eclipse though..

For C++ though I like CodeLite alot for cross development in Windows, Linux, OSX. It's a really nice IDE that gets better everyday. It also has some plugins for Astyle Source Formatting, and UnitTest++. All it needs now is a nice Code Coverage plugin.

I haven't tried CodeLite. I tend to use Visual Studio when I'm developing in Windows. At one point (about 10 years ago) I tried Code::Blocks (it had some integrated support for the WxWidgets GUI toolkit), and I thought that was a decent IDE.

Nightfox

$ Nightfox was quoted saying . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Well I can say it's about time. I have a feeling they are working

towards > having Android apps running in Windows as well.

I think the first article did mention they plan to let Android apps run on Windows devices (in addition to iOS apps).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yep, Windows is clawing back to get everything to run on their platform. Good move, but will it be enough. :)

$ Nightfox was quoted saying . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yeah, I'm disappointed that the 'pro' level Visual Studio has become so expensive. Just several years ago, you could buy Visual C++, Visual C#,
etc. for around $110 each, or the entire Visual Studio for around
$300-$500, if I remember right. At least Microsoft has the 'Community' edition of Visual Studio (formerly known as 'Express'), which is free.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ya, i've played with the Express version, It seems like such a pain in the butt through, to get anything to compile you have to install the SDK. I was playing with Node.js, and and to compile all of the modules it was looking for visual studio. So i installed it, installed hte SDK then you get issues with paths, environmental variables, and even registry settings missing. It's a horriable mess. I really dislike all the extra manual work you ahve to do
with microsoft stuff. When i'm using other IDE's it's alot easier to get
stuff going.

Of course if you using their stuff like C#, VB.NET then it's a little easier. I like VB.NET alot i must admit. After getting useta VB6 with lots of legacy applications then rewritting stuff in VB.NET i found it very easy to work
with. It's a pitty everyone hates on it so much. It's just as powerful as C# and the others and just easier to deal with. Seems like with C3 you always have to cast stuff which gets anoying.

$ Nightfox was quoted saying . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Since the move to Android Studio though, Eclipse is no longer the official development platform for Android apps. Android Studio is now the official IDE for Android, and it's based on IntelliJ. I tend to like the IntelliJ
UI better than Eclipse, although I don't know how good IntelliJ's plugin support is. I suppose a lot of Android developers could still use Eclipse though..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I did notice the switch from Eclipse to Android Studio. I haven't done much Android tinkering yet, And i think alot of the IntelliJ's plugins have
matching ones in Eclipse, So thats a plus right there. Once of these days
i'll have to give it a shot. I'm pretty new to Eclipse too, i've installed it
a few times but haven't had time to work on much since i still do a majority
of my work in C++.

$ Nightfox was quoted saying . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I haven't tried CodeLite. I tend to use Visual Studio when I'm developing
in Windows. At one point (about 10 years ago) I tried Code::Blocks (it
had some integrated support for the WxWidgets GUI toolkit), and I thought that was a decent IDE.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I noticed Code::Blocks too, it was pretty nice, although it keeps the make files internal which is a bit anoying if you want to compile stuff manually or don't want to load the IDE. Codelite basically i found while browsing cross platform options. It's pretty nice, and of course free which is the best :)

|07M|11er|03cy|07ful Fate |08(|15hTc|08)|07

--- Enthral BBS v.634 (PI/2 Linux armv7l)
* Origin: haunting The chapel >>--> htc.zapto.org <--<< (46:1/140)

Re: Re: Microsoft cross-platform dev tools
By: Mercyful Fate to Nightfox on Fri May 01 2015 00:49:38

Yep, Windows is clawing back to get everything to run on their platform. Good move, but will it be enough. :)

I think time will tell if it's a good move or not. I was reminded of OS/2, in that IBM enabled OS/2 to run Windows 3.1 applications, and developers ended up just writing applications for Windows since Windows was more popular. Perhaps more developers would have developed native OS/2 apps if OS/2 didn't have the Windows 3.1 layer. There are advantages and disadvantages to it though, but in that case, it didn't work in OS/2's favor. There are many more Android & iOS devices than Microsoft mobile devices out there, so I'm wondering if Microsoft might be shooting themselves in the foot.

Ya, i've played with the Express version, It seems like such a pain in the butt through, to get anything to compile you have to install the SDK. I was playing with Node.js, and and to compile all of the modules it was looking for visual studio. So i installed it, installed hte SDK then you get issues with paths, environmental variables, and even registry settings missing. It's a horriable mess. I really dislike all the extra manual work you ahve to do with microsoft stuff.

That's true.. I miss the days when the professional edition of Visual Studio wasn't so expensive.

I remember when Borland Turbo C++ was big on the market in the early-mid 90s, and it was very affordable. I'd think one good way to get developers to develop apps for a platform is to make the development tools affordable. I suppose there are good affordable/free IDEs available for Windows (including Microsoft's own 'Express' tools), but it would still be nice if the professional Visual Studio didn't cost an arm and a leg.

Of course if you using their stuff like C#, VB.NET then it's a little easier. I like VB.NET alot i must admit. After getting useta VB6 with lots of legacy applications then rewritting stuff in VB.NET i found it very easy to work with. It's a pitty everyone hates on it so much. It's just as powerful as C# and the others and just easier to deal with.

I haven't used VB very much, but have used C# a bit. I think it's a good language overall. I think people tend to think of VB.NET as 'C# Lite' - I think there are a few features that C# has that VB.NET doesn't have. Also, all the .NET languages end up being compiled down to the same bytecode, so they all have to support some similar features anyway (i.e., I believe the data type sizes are the same in all .NET languages?). I think people tend to feel like since C# and VB.NET are both .NET languages, you might as well use C# since you can do a little bit more with it.

Seems like
with C# you always have to cast stuff which gets anoying.

I don't mind that so much - Having to cast makes the code more explicit, which can be good when you're reading through the code 6 months later and don't remember everything about it.

Nightfox

Re: Re: Microsoft cross-platform dev tools
By: Nightfox to Mercyful Fate on Fri May 01 2015 07:38 am

I think time will tell if it's a good move or not. I was reminded of OS/2, in that IBM enabled OS/2 to run Windows 3.1 applications, and developers ended up just writing applications for Windows since Windows was more popular. Perhaps more developers would have developed native OS/2 apps if OS/2 didn't have the Windows 3.1 layer.

Back then, Microsoft gave away copies of their SDK to anyone who wanted one, and IBM charged an arm and a leg for theirs -- and the app ecosystem for Windows took off.

"Good enough" was the thorn on IBM's side. With a 386, you pretty much needed to run OS/2 apps to multitask decently. I used to run a 386DX/25 with 8 megs of RAM and OS/2 2.0 at work, and connected to AS/400s, a MS Lan Manager Network, and could dial out at 9600 baud -- all on OS/2 apps. Throw Windows or DOS apps into the mix and things got a bit more complicated.

With a 486 and more memory, OS/2 could handle Windows apps sufficiently that you didn't need to find an OS/2 app to get the job done.

DOS was similar. I took a DOS Maximus/Squish/BinkleyTerm setup for my BBS and ran it under OS/2 while I migrated to OS/2 native apps, and I felt like I could run multiple nodes with less load than one DOS instance put on the system.
--- SBBSecho 2.27-Win32
* Origin: Sent from my iPhone (46:1/115)

I think time will tell if it's a good move or not. I was reminded of OS/2, in that IBM enabled OS/2 to run Windows 3.1 applications, and developers ended up just writing applications for Windows since Windows was more popular. Perhaps more developers would have

developed

native OS/2 apps if OS/2 didn't have the Windows 3.1 layer.

Back then, Microsoft gave away copies of their SDK to anyone who wanted

one,

and IBM charged an arm and a leg for theirs -- and the app ecosystem for Windows took off.

I suppose that would be a significant factor in software development.

Nightfox

$ Nightfox was quoted saying . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I remember when Borland Turbo C++ was big on the market in the early-mid
90s, and it was very affordable. I'd think one good way to get developers
to develop apps for a platform is to make the development tools
affordable. I suppose there are good affordable/free IDEs available for Windows (including Microsoft's own 'Express' tools), but it would still be nice if the professional Visual Studio didn't cost an arm and a leg.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ya, if anything they should have seperate licenecs for indivdual use and still provides all the funcationality that ultimate editions have. I hate this different tier approach. Probably because they care more about the coperate environments then indivdual developers. Just makes indivduals want to pirate their stuff so they can get the full functionaly.

It will be interesting to see how mobile development will be affected going forward. I'm waiting for mobile dev to be as easy as compiling a simple program in linux on the command line.

|07M|11er|03cy|07ful Fate |08(|15hTc|08)|07

--- Enthral BBS v.634 (PI/2 Linux armv7l)
* Origin: haunting The chapel >>--> htc.zapto.org <--<< (46:1/140)

$ Nightfox was quoted saying . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I don't mind that so much - Having to cast makes the code more explicit, which can be good when you're reading through the code 6 months later and don't remember everything about it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If you code it right and use descriptive variables when naming, then the code should tell you what it does. Casting doesn't do much but make you jump through more hoops. And for anything not obvious or tricky, thats where a
k comment comes in handy.

We all have our own preferences, which is why there are so many different languages to choose from.. heh

quic

|07M|11er|03cy|07ful Fate |08(|15hTc|08)|07

--- Enthral BBS v.634 (PI/2 Linux armv7l)
* Origin: haunting The chapel >>--> htc.zapto.org <--<< (46:1/140)

$ Poindexter Fortran was quoted saying . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Good enough" was the thorn on IBM's side. With a 386, you pretty much
needed to run OS/2 apps to multitask decently. I used to run a 386DX/25
with 8 megs of RAM and OS/2 2.0 at work, and connected to AS/400s, a MS
Lan Manager Network, and could dial out at 9600 baud -- all on OS/2 apps. Throw Windows or DOS apps into the mix and things got a bit more
complicated.

With a 486 and more memory, OS/2 could handle Windows apps sufficiently
that you didn't need to find an OS/2 app to get the job done.

DOS was similar. I took a DOS Maximus/Squish/BinkleyTerm setup for my BBS
and ran it under OS/2 while I migrated to OS/2 native apps, and I felt
like I could run multiple nodes with less load than one DOS instance put

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yep, although the only thing OS/2 is good at now a days is multi-tasking DOS apps. It's a pretty dated and useless OS to say to the least. You basically need old hardware to run and install it. Which might be fine for some reto programs like BBS software, but for anything else it's pretty useless.

I liked OS/2 alot, and even ran warp 4 then eCommStatation for a while. It's was good for DOS stuff but again anything else was just diffcult.

|07M|11er|03cy|07ful Fate |08(|15hTc|08)|07

--- Enthral BBS v.634 (PI/2 Linux armv7l)
* Origin: haunting The chapel >>--> htc.zapto.org <--<< (46:1/140)

$ Poindexter Fortran was quoted saying . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Back then, Microsoft gave away copies of their SDK to anyone who wanted
one, and IBM charged an arm and a leg for theirs -- and the app ecosystem
for Windows took off.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

IBM hasn't had a very good history of doing the smart thing. And microsoft
has really taken advantage of that over the years. IBM selling all their computer unites and just sticking to mainframes is another example. They
seems to be going down a lonely road..

|07M|11er|03cy|07ful Fate |08(|15hTc|08)|07

--- Enthral BBS v.634 (PI/2 Linux armv7l)
* Origin: haunting The chapel >>--> htc.zapto.org <--<< (46:1/140)

Re: Re: Microsoft cross-platform dev tools
By: Mercyful Fate to Nightfox on Sat May 02 2015 16:58:58

It will be interesting to see how mobile development will be affected going forward.

I think so too. I wonder how Visual Studio's cross-platform tools for iOS and Android will affect mobile development.

I'm waiting for mobile dev to be as easy as compiling a
simple program in linux on the command line.

We've been doing that at work. We're using Gradle as a build system for Android, which works on the command line (it's like makefiles on steroids), and Apple's XCode has a command-line compiler that lets you build your XCode projects (including mobile apps for iOS) from the command line.

Nightfox

Re: Re: Microsoft cross-platform dev tools
By: Mercyful Fate to Nightfox on Sat May 02 2015 17:05:20

If you code it right and use descriptive variables when naming, then the code should tell you what it does. Casting doesn't do much but make you jump through more hoops. And for anything not obvious or tricky, thats where a k comment comes in handy.

True, but there are times when type conversion can be somewhat ambiguous when left up to the compiler to automatically convert types for you. I suppose it affects some languages more than others, too. I think it's particularly true for languages that aren't explicitly typed. I suppose it is jumping through hoops, in a way, but if the language infers types for you, sometimes you have to do something to ensure that a variable becomes the type you need it to be for a certain scenario.

We all have our own preferences, which is why there are so many different languages to choose from.. heh

Yep. It seems each language has its own distinct fan base.

Nightfox

Re: Re: Microsoft cross-platform dev tools
By: Mercyful Fate to Poindexter Fortran on Sat May 02 2015 05:10 pm

Yep, although the only thing OS/2 is good at now a days is multi-tasking DOS apps. It's a pretty dated and useless OS to say to the least. You basically need old hardware to run and install it. Which might be fine for some reto programs like BBS software, but for anything else it's pretty useless.

When I ran DOS, OS/2 rocked. On not much more hardware than I ran DOS natively on, I could multitask the BBS, a window for my own stuff, and a DOS
VDM for networking that didn't run on OS/2.

OS/2 faded for me as soon as Windows95 and Netscape came out. Windows IP support was so much easier than OS/2s, and once windows apps came out that Windows apps could multitask, I didn't have a need for A Better DOS than DOS. --- SBBSecho 2.27-Win32
* Origin: Sent from my iPhone (46:1/115)

We've been doing that at work. We're using Gradle as a build system for Android, which works on the command line (it's like makefiles on steroids), and Apple's XCode has a command-line compiler that lets you build your XCode projects (including mobile apps for iOS) from the
command line.

Sounds cool, i'll have to look into that some more. My main problem is there isn't really anything i can think of that i feel like making for mobile.
Sure i'l like to make soem games, but that seems like a very large project
that would take a long time, and it's hard to commit to something on that scale.

--- Mystic BBS v1.10 (Linux)
* Origin: Cyberia BBS | Cyberia.Darktech.Org | Kingwood, TX (46:1/116)

If you code it right and use descriptive variables when naming, then code should tell you what it does. Casting doesn't do much but make y jump through more hoops. And for anything not obvious or tricky, that where a k comment comes in handy.

True, but there are times when type conversion can be somewhat ambiguous when left up to the compiler to automatically convert types for you. I suppose it affects some languages more than others, too. I think it's particularly true for languages that aren't explicitly typed. I suppose it is jumping through hoops, in a way, but if the language infers types for you, sometimes you have to do something to ensure that a variable becomes the type you need it to be for a certain scenario.

Yep, i know its needed in planty of areas, i do mainly code in c++ after all which is the land of casting and over casting. Gcc even complains about just passing literals like "hello" and wants a (char *) preceeding it. Just irks
me some. ;) Then of course all of default types being signed, and all of
the functions taking unsigned. Lots of things to watch out for when coding
in certain languages.

--- Mystic BBS v1.10 (Linux)
* Origin: Cyberia BBS | Cyberia.Darktech.Org | Kingwood, TX (46:1/116)

When I ran DOS, OS/2 rocked. On not much more hardware than I ran DOS natively on, I could multitask the BBS, a window for my own stuff, and a DOS VDM for networking that didn't run on OS/2.

OS/2 faded for me as soon as Windows95 and Netscape came out. Windows IP support was so much easier than OS/2s, and once windows apps came out
that Windows apps could multitask, I didn't have a need for A Better DOS

It's funny how quickly stuff fades. By the time you get useta one thing,
along comes the next big thing with all of it's bells and whistles.

--- Mystic BBS v1.10 (Linux)
* Origin: Cyberia BBS | Cyberia.Darktech.Org | Kingwood, TX (46:1/116)

It's funny how quickly stuff fades. By the time you get useta one thing, along comes the next big thing with all of it's bells and whistles.

Yeah, sometimes I have the impression that companies can't really make up their minds on what they think works best. One example is Windows 8. Just when I think the Windows 7 user interface works well and looks good, Microsoft decided to significantly change the Windows user interface with Windows 8, thinking a mobile-like UI is the way to go. Personally, I think the Windows 8 interface looks flat and monotone; it's ugly compared to Windows 7. Apple has been making similar changes to OS X in the past few years, too..

Nightfox

Nightfox wrote to Poindexter Fortran <=-

and IBM charged an arm and a leg for theirs -- and the app ecosystem for Windows took off.

I suppose that would be a significant factor in software development.

Thinking back, the software landscape was all shareware -- and the price
of entry could be quite low for a small team (or single author) to get
into the scene. Having to pay for an SDK could very easily swing a
platform decision.




... Powered By Celeron (Tualatin). Engineered for the future.
--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.50
* Origin: Sent from my iPhone (46:1/115)

$ Nightfox was quoted saying . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yeah, sometimes I have the impression that companies can't really make up their minds on what they think works best. One example is Windows 8.
Just when I think the Windows 7 user interface works well and looks good, Microsoft decided to significantly change the Windows user interface with Windows 8, thinking a mobile-like UI is the way to go. Personally, I
think the Windows 8 interface looks flat and monotone; it's ugly compared
to Windows 7. Apple has been making similar changes to OS X in the past
few years, too..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Oh i can't agree more!! I just installed a new all in one system for my
mother and that was my first real look at Windows 8. that monotone actually makes the windows look and feel bulky with the theme colors just offsetting whatever your looking at. I hate it. I even have it in a VM for some cross compiling and testing and let alone those metro apps that stay always running in the background just like a phone. When i click close, i mean CLOSE! haha

|07M|11er|03cy|07ful Fate |08(|15hTc|08)|07

--- Enthral BBS v.634 (PI/2 Linux armv7l)
* Origin: haunting The chapel >>--> htc.zapto.org <--<< (46:1/140)

$ Poindexter Fortran was quoted saying . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thinking back, the software landscape was all shareware -- and the price
of entry could be quite low for a small team (or single author) to get
into the scene. Having to pay for an SDK could very easily swing a
platform decision.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I would have to aggree. The one thing that really stears me away from windows it's alot of it's platform specific API and lack of UTF-8 support. It has
it's own UTF-16 which needs to be translated back and forth and just makes supporting localization so much more diffcult then it needs to be.

|07M|11er|03cy|07ful Fate |08(|15hTc|08)|07

--- Enthral BBS v.634 (PI/2 Linux armv7l)
* Origin: haunting The chapel >>--> htc.zapto.org <--<< (46:1/140)

Re: Re: Microsoft cross-platform dev tools
By: Mercyful Fate to Nightfox on Tue May 05 2015 16:54:32

good, Microsoft decided to significantly change the Windows user
interface with Windows 8, thinking a mobile-like UI is the way to go.
Personally, I think the Windows 8 interface looks flat and monotone;
it's ugly compared to Windows 7. Apple has been making similar
changes to OS X in the past few years, too..

Oh i can't agree more!! I just installed a new all in one system for my mother and that was my first real look at Windows 8. that monotone actually makes the windows look and feel bulky with the theme colors just offsetting whatever your looking at. I hate it. I even have it in a VM for some cross compiling and testing and let alone those metro apps that stay always running in the background just like a phone. When i click close, i mean CLOSE! haha

Yes :) Thankfully, Windows 8.x still support desktop software, and Windows 8.1 can boot directly to the desktop if you want. And I heard Microsoft is putting a more traditional Start menu back into Windows 10 (although there are add-ons for Windows 8.x available now that do that).

Nightfox

$ Nightfox was quoted saying . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yes :) Thankfully, Windows 8.x still support desktop software, and
Windows 8.1 can boot directly to the desktop if you want. And I heard Microsoft is putting a more traditional Start menu back into Windows 10 (although there are add-ons for Windows 8.x available now that do that).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That start button in 8.1 is ridclious, it just puts you to the Metro Desktop, they should call it a puke button instead.. :)

Addon's i've seen some floating around, i remember using cools ones for 98,
and xp called window blinds that gave different window types and buttons.
That was good stuff back in the day. Of course addon's and windows never
seems to work that great together.

Windows 10 will be intersting, i saw something about free os for PI, so i
might look into geting a seperate SDcard and checking it out. Of course it will be as useless as Windows RT.. ;)

|07M|11er|03cy|07ful Fate |08(|15hTc|08)|07

--- Enthral BBS v.634 (PI/2 Linux armv7l)
* Origin: haunting The chapel >>--> htc.zapto.org <--<< (46:1/140)

Hello Mercyful,

On 06 May 15 15:17, Mercyful Fate wrote to Nightfox:

That start button in 8.1 is ridclious, it just puts you to the Metro Desktop, they should call it a puke button instead.. :)

Right clicking on the start button gives you a little more of a "normal" start menu, minus the start menu launchers. I've gotten used to it I guess.

Windows 10 will be intersting, i saw something about free os for PI,
so i might look into geting a seperate SDcard and checking it out. Of course it will be as useless as Windows RT.. ;)

I think they're still doing trial versions of Win10, but I'm sticking with 7 and 8.1 for awhile, at least until they're no longer supported. :)

Regards,
Nick

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130910
* Origin: thePharcyde_ telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (46:1/701)

Re: Re: Microsoft cross-platform dev tools
By: Mercyful Fate to Nightfox on Wed May 06 2015 15:17:24

That start button in 8.1 is ridclious, it just puts you to the Metro Desktop, they should call it a puke button instead.. :)

Addon's i've seen some floating around, i remember using cools ones for 98, and xp called window blinds that gave different window types and buttons. That was good stuff back in the day. Of course addon's and windows never seems to work that great together.

:) I originally heard that Microsoft was going to add the Start menu back into Windows 8.1 with an update last year, but then they pushed it out to Windows 10. Oh well.. I've seen several Start menu add-ons for Windows 8.x out there. The one I'm using on my laptop right now is Classic Shell - It's free and I think it's fairly nice and works well:
http://www.classicshell.net
There are others available too. Lenovo has one (it's not too bad, but I like Classic Shell better). Stardock also has one (I used to use their Object Desktop tools, which were pretty cool), but they charge money for it. I've heard good reviews about Stardock's though.

will be as useless as Windows RT.. ;)

I agree Windows RT is fairly useless. I'd think Windows RT only creates confusion in the market - I'm not sure how many people realize the significance that it can't run desktop software (because it runs on ARM rather than Intel x86). People who don't know much about computers & tablets yet would probably be fairly confused by it. I'm not sure how many people are using Windows RT devices, but I can see how it might end up being a flop. Possibly only Microsoft Bob was one of Microsoft's worse decisions (if you've never heard of Microsoft Bob, look it up).

Nightfox

Re: Re: Microsoft cross-platform dev tools
By: Accession to Mercyful Fate on Wed May 06 2015 20:36:58

I think they're still doing trial versions of Win10, but I'm sticking with 7 and 8.1 for awhile, at least until they're no longer supported. :)

It seems Microsoft has changed their Windows model a bit, in which they'll be releasing new versions of Windows more often, and I believe they'll be cheaper or in some cases, free upgrades. So, I think older versions of Windows will be going obsolete sooner. I just did a quick search online, and it sounds like Windows 10 will be free "for one year" for Windows 7 and 8.1 users: http://bit.ly/1zg3R05
I hope "for one year" means you can upgrade for free within a year of its release (rather than Microsoft going to a yearly subscription model). If that's the case, I suppose there wouldn't be much reason not to sign up for a copy.

Nightfox

Hello Nightfox,

On 06 May 15 19:54, Nightfox wrote to Accession:

It seems Microsoft has changed their Windows model a bit, in which
they'll be releasing new versions of Windows more often, and I believe they'll be cheaper or in some cases, free upgrades. So, I think older versions of Windows will be going obsolete sooner. I just did a quick search online, and it sounds like Windows 10 will be free "for one
year" for Windows 7 and 8.1 users:
http://bit.ly/1zg3R05
I hope "for one year" means you can upgrade for free within a year of
its release (rather than Microsoft going to a yearly subscription
model). If that's the case, I suppose there wouldn't be much reason
not to sign up for a copy.

Except when you completely forget about it, and that year is up. Then since it will probably be a requirement that you give them some credit card information,
they'll automatically bill you some ugly amount no matter what you do.

I also thought they had already made an EOL for Win7? Wasn't it like 2017 or something? Let's me know I'm still okay for a couple more years. At least probably until I'm ready to buy/built another computer.. and by that time I'll just get the current Windows copy at the time preinstalled with a backup disk like I did with Win8.1. *shrug*

Regards,
Nick

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130910
* Origin: thePharcyde_ telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (46:1/701)

$ Accession was quoted saying . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think they're still doing trial versions of Win10, but I'm sticking with
7 and 8.1 for awhile, at least until they're no longer supported. :)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have 7 for my desktop, and really no plans to upgrade. I always wait a
while untill most of the kinks are worked out. The first few releases are always crap when it comes to Microsoft. hehe But i suppose for the most part Windows 8 is working as it should. Just no need of it's features really. I don't see any value in windows 8 other then being anoying with it's idiocies.

|07M|11er|03cy|07ful Fate |08(|15hTc|08)|07

--- Enthral BBS v.634 (PI/2 Linux armv7l)
* Origin: haunting The chapel >>--> htc.zapto.org <--<< (46:1/140)

$ Nightfox was quoted saying . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

8.x out there. The one I'm using on my laptop right now is Classic Shell - It's free and I think it's fairly nice and works well: http://www.classicshell.net
There are others available too. Lenovo has one (it's not too bad, but I
like Classic Shell better). Stardock also has one (I used to use their Object Desktop tools, which were pretty cool), but they charge money for
it. I've heard good reviews about Stardock's though.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I rmember a sweet fix for windows 98 back in the bad when it's desktop blew chunks. There was this cool distrobustion called 98Lite. And bascially it would install windows 98, but it would overwrite the shell with windows 95 explorer, which at the time had much better performance and stability.

Ha, i'm surprise to see a site still up for it infact.. http://www.litepc.com/98lite.html

Ahh the good old days of gaming!

$ Nightfox was quoted saying . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

will be as useless as Windows RT.. ;)

I agree Windows RT is fairly useless. I'd think Windows RT only creates confusion in the market - I'm not sure how many people realize the significance that it can't run desktop software (because it runs on ARM rather than Intel x86). People who don't know much about computers &
tablets yet would probably be fairly confused by it. I'm not sure how
many people are using Windows RT devices, but I can see how it might end
up being a flop. Possibly only Microsoft Bob was one of Microsoft's worse decisions (if you've never heard of Microsoft Bob, look it up).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I laughed real hard when RT was announced. It be a little different if they followed what Apple did with the PowerPC emulation when they moved to Intel, then at least users on RT could run windows app still. But not being the
case, i don't even see RT being advertised anymore.

|07M|11er|03cy|07ful Fate |08(|15hTc|08)|07

--- Enthral BBS v.634 (PI/2 Linux armv7l)
* Origin: haunting The chapel >>--> htc.zapto.org <--<< (46:1/140)

$ Accession was quoted saying . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I also thought they had already made an EOL for Win7? Wasn't it like 2017
or something? Let's me know I'm still okay for a couple more years. At
least probably until I'm ready to buy/built another computer.. and by that time I'll just get the current Windows copy at the time preinstalled with
a backup disk like I did with Win8.1. *shrug*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

2017 is a long time away sorta. By then windows 2020 will be ready to
release or something new. It seems by the time release they OS, they are already working on the next one which they will make you buy and upgrade to. It's a never ending cycle really. They need to stick with one, and keep
fixing and upgrading features. Not keep rewritting it every could years so you have to keep buying new versions.

|07M|11er|03cy|07ful Fate |08(|15hTc|08)|07

--- Enthral BBS v.634 (PI/2 Linux armv7l)
* Origin: haunting The chapel >>--> htc.zapto.org <--<< (46:1/140)

Hello Mercyful,

On 09 May 15 05:04, Mercyful Fate wrote to Accession:

I have 7 for my desktop, and really no plans to upgrade. I always
wait a while untill most of the kinks are worked out. The first few releases are always crap when it comes to Microsoft. hehe But i
suppose for the most part Windows 8 is working as it should. Just no
need of it's features really. I don't see any value in windows 8
other then being anoying with it's idiocies.

Honestly, I haven't noticed any "kinks" in either Win7 or Win8.1 since I started using them. Maybe they finally got the point after all the complaints that came from Vista. It had to be a pretty hard kick in the balls to M$ hearing people say that Vista was about as worthless as WinME, which came out what, in the 90s? :)

I've setup my Win8.1 much like I had my Win7 setup. It's basically the same except for a few things that you can't really get past, but they're there. Personally I don't really care for the window borders. The big square red "X" button on the top right is ugly, as well as the gray color of the border. While
I know all that can be changed with some 3rd party stuff, I don't care to, so I
guess I'm just getting used to it.

As for the start menu, I've completely redone it - getting rid of all the default programs displayed there and only put the ones I actually use. However,
I tend to use "right click" on the start menu for things like control panel, command prompt, etc. Otherwise with the icons of my important programs in my taskbar, I hardly ever use the start menu at all anyways.. so that's pretty easy to see past.

The only reason I have Win8.1 at the moment is because it came with the new PC.
I just figured why not since it was the latest and I won't get forced to upgrade (mainly due to lack of support) for awhile at least.

My i5 still has Win7 Ultimate on it, and will probably never be upgraded to another version of Windows as far as I can tell. My son uses it for his games and whatnot, and whenever the time comes that the BBS machine decides to take a
poo, it will be it's replacement. My son will have a fit, but then that just means I'll have to keep the rotation going and buy a newer machine for me so he
can have this one. I LOL at my revolving door process. hahaha

Regards,
Nick

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130910
* Origin: thePharcyde_ telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (46:1/701)

Hello Mercyful,

On 09 May 15 05:12, Mercyful Fate wrote to Accession:

2017 is a long time away sorta. By then windows 2020 will be ready to release or something new. It seems by the time release they OS, they
are already working on the next one which they will make you buy and upgrade to. It's a never ending cycle really. They need to stick with one, and keep fixing and upgrading features. Not keep rewritting it
every could years so you have to keep buying new versions.

That's exactly the reason they do it! They wouldn't make any money if they stuck with one version and kept fixing it up forever. That's the Linux way of doing things, because it's free. MS has to keep coming out with new products or
their business would fold pretty fast.

At least at this point, we can go a few versions of Windows without having to upgrade. But it's sounding more and more like that might change soon. If it ever happens where I'm literally forced into buying new versions of Windows, I will be looking at alternate methods. Hopefully by that time SteamOS is up to snuff, since I mainly only keep Windows on my machines for gaming, and mostly Steam related. :)

Regards,
Nick

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130910
* Origin: thePharcyde_ telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (46:1/701)

Re: Re: Microsoft cross-platform dev tools
By: Mercyful Fate to Nightfox on Sat May 09 2015 05:07:12

I rmember a sweet fix for windows 98 back in the bad when it's desktop blew chunks. There was this cool distrobustion called 98Lite. And bascially it would install windows 98, but it would overwrite the shell with windows 95 explorer, which at the time had much better performance and stability.

I remember 98Lite. I don't remember it as a full Windows distribution, but rather an app that would modify Windows features, such as removing Internet Explorer integration from the shell (I believe as you said, by putting the Win95 Explorer in place). I seem to remember running into some system instabilities with it though..

There's a group who is developing an open-source OS called ReactOS, which aims to provide an open-source Windows-compatible operating system: https://www.reactos.org/
I've been interested in that for a while, but even after the 8+ years I've been watching their web site, ReactOS is still at an alpha stage (currently it's at version 0.3.17). Their site says it's not ready for everyday use (it likely has significant features missing or incomplete), but it looks interesting.

I laughed real hard when RT was announced. It be a little different if they followed what Apple did with the PowerPC emulation when they moved to Intel, then at least users on RT could run windows app still. But not being the case, i don't even see RT being advertised anymore.

I doubt that ARM processors (used in the WinRT machines) are fast enough to run an Intel emulator at a decent speed.

Nightfox

Re: Re: Microsoft cross-platform dev tools
By: Mercyful Fate to Accession on Sat May 09 2015 05:12:38

2017 is a long time away sorta. By then windows 2020 will be ready to release or something new. It seems by the time release they OS, they are already working on the next one which they will make you buy and upgrade to. It's a never ending cycle really. They need to stick with one, and keep fixing and upgrading features. Not keep rewritting it every could years so you have to keep buying new versions.

I think Microsoft is moving somewhat to something like that kind of model. Windows 8.1 was a free update for Windows 8.0 users (at least, for a certain amount of time, I think), and from what I heard, Microsoft made Windows 8.0 obsolete quickly in favor of 8.1. And I heard Windows 10 will be a free upgrade for Windows 7 and 8 users (at least for a limited time).

I'm a little nervous that Microsoft might go to a subscription model for their OS, where you would actually need to pay them money to continue using Windows and be forced to upgrade, rather than just buying a copy of Windows and using it for as long as you want.

The subscription model has been adopted by other companies, and I really don't like the idea of having to keep paying a monthly/yearly fee to use software. I've been getting more into photography lately, and I've heard Adobe now uses a subscription model for Photoshop and Lightroom. Those are programs that I wouldn't use regularly - only off and on - and I'd rather just pay for the software once and use it whenever I like.

Nightfox

Re: Re: Microsoft cross-platform dev tools
By: Accession to Mercyful Fate on Sat May 09 2015 07:25:22

Honestly, I haven't noticed any "kinks" in either Win7 or Win8.1 since I started using them. Maybe they finally got the point after all the complaints that came from Vista. It had to be a pretty hard kick in the balls to M$ hearing people say that Vista was about as worthless as WinME, which came out what, in the 90s? :)

I used WinME for a little while, and I didn't have any problems with it.. The problems people complained about WinME seem a bit exaggerated to me, but I didn't use it for very long before upgrading to XP.

Nightfox

Hello Nightfox,

On 09 May 15 09:50, Nightfox wrote to Accession:

I used WinME for a little while, and I didn't have any problems with
it.. The problems people complained about WinME seem a bit
exaggerated to me, but I didn't use it for very long before upgrading
to XP.

You may very well have been one of the very few lucky ones then. To this day you can probably google all the issues and complaints people had about WinME, and apparantly Vista wasn't much better. From what I remember, it was sluggish and slow as all hell compared to it's predecessor. Always having popups saying something was wrong when in fact there was nothing wrong. Otherwise, it was so long ago I don't remember much else about it.

Regards,
Nick

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130910
* Origin: thePharcyde_ telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (46:1/701)

Re: Re: Microsoft cross-platform dev tools
By: Accession to Nightfox on Sat May 09 2015 16:35:50

I used WinME for a little while, and I didn't have any problems with
it.. The problems people complained about WinME seem a bit
exaggerated to me, but I didn't use it for very long before
upgrading to XP.

You may very well have been one of the very few lucky ones then. To this day you can probably google all the issues and complaints people had about WinME, and apparantly Vista wasn't much better. From what I remember, it was sluggish and slow as all hell compared to it's predecessor. Always having popups saying something was wrong when in fact there was nothing wrong. Otherwise, it was so long ago I don't remember much else about it.

Yeah, I've seen a lot of complaints about WinME online. I probably was one of the lucky ones. From what I remember, WinME actually seemed to run fairly fast. I remember reading that WinME dropped support for command-line only mode (with Win98 and Win95, you could set it up to boot only to the command line and not boot into Windows), and dropping support for that was meant to speed some things up a little. I also remember having some issues with Windows 98 not shutting down all the way sometimes, which seemed (to me) to be fixed in WinME.

Nightfox

$ Accession was quoted saying . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That's exactly the reason they do it! They wouldn't make any money if they stuck with one version and kept fixing it up forever. That's the Linux way
of doing things, because it's free. MS has to keep coming out with new products or their business would fold pretty fast.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yep, although it was just announced.

Microsoft to stop producing Windows versions: http://m.bbc.com/news/technology-32658340

Looks like Windows 10 will be the last major version, then everything else
will be enchancements and upgrades to the same system. I bet this will lead
to a full subscription model at which time i will say good bye microsoft.

|07M|11er|03cy|07ful Fate |08(|15hTc|08)|07

--- Enthral BBS v.634 (PI/2 Linux armv7l)
* Origin: haunting The chapel >>--> htc.zapto.org <--<< (46:1/140)

$ Nightfox was quoted saying . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There's a group who is developing an open-source OS called ReactOS, which aims to provide an open-source Windows-compatible operating system: https://www.reactos.org/
I've been interested in that for a while, but even after the 8+ years I've been watching their web site, ReactOS is still at an alpha stage
(currently it's at version 0.3.17). Their site says it's not ready for everyday use (it likely has significant features missing or incomplete),
but it looks interesting.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ya I was taking a peak at that last night. I just installed Mint on my wifes box as Windows 7 kept crashing, i figured i'd test if it's Windows 7 drivers
or if it's hardware and linux has the same issues. I was looking to setup vmware with windows OS for iTunes since there is no linux version which sorta sucks. But it doesn't look quite ready at this time. I ended going for XP
Pro 64 bit. But the latest itunes is not to friendly with it, so i have to
try some work arounds and see if i have any luck. otherwise i'm really surprised how fast it runs in vmware.. Makes everything now a days feel over bloated to say the least.

|07M|11er|03cy|07ful Fate |08(|15hTc|08)|07

--- Enthral BBS v.634 (PI/2 Linux armv7l)
* Origin: haunting The chapel >>--> htc.zapto.org <--<< (46:1/140)

$ Nightfox was quoted saying . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I laughed real hard when RT was announced. It be a little different if
they followed what Apple did with the PowerPC emulation when they moved

to > Intel, then at least users on RT could run windows app still. But not

being the case, i don't even see RT being advertised anymore.

I doubt that ARM processors (used in the WinRT machines) are fast enough
to run an Intel emulator at a decent speed.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ya, you might be right on that. Although they seem to be catching up quite nicely. It would be much cooler if the 64 bit arm that is in the latest iphone6's were more avaiable for other things like the PI or single board computers. Then we might see some action.

|07M|11er|03cy|07ful Fate |08(|15hTc|08)|07

--- Enthral BBS v.634 (PI/2 Linux armv7l)
* Origin: haunting The chapel >>--> htc.zapto.org <--<< (46:1/140)

$ Nightfox was quoted saying . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think Microsoft is moving somewhat to something like that kind of model. Windows 8.1 was a free update for Windows 8.0 users (at least, for a
certain amount of time, I think), and from what I heard, Microsoft made Windows 8.0 obsolete quickly in favor of 8.1. And I heard Windows 10 will
be a free upgrade for Windows 7 and 8 users (at least for a limited time).

I'm a little nervous that Microsoft might go to a subscription model for their OS, where you would actually need to pay them money to continue
using Windows and be forced to upgrade, rather than just buying a copy of Windows and using it for as long as you want.

The subscription model has been adopted by other companies, and I really don't like the idea of having to keep paying a monthly/yearly fee to use software. I've been getting more into photography lately, and I've heard Adobe now uses a subscription model for Photoshop and Lightroom. Those
are programs that I wouldn't use regularly - only off and on - and I'd
rather just pay for the software once and use it whenever I like.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yes, this is excatly what i'm worries about too. I'm now going to pay monthly to use a word editor (office 360), or an operating system. That is just hooha!. I bet they charge a small fee one that free upgrade period is over, then it will be subscription for new features and functionaly.

The thing that will suck is they will faze windows 7 and the like out just
like XP, Windows update will no longer work and you'll be stuck with programs that will not install on it anymore which is really underhanded with version checks in the .msi files.

I bet they don't want to scare anyone, but this could be the push that chrome os and others like linux need. Mac is just as bad at time, but myabe they
will see this as an perfect change to out do microsoft and offer their stuff for free. Just OS/X has that pesky busniess about only wanting to run on
apple hardware to deal with first. My wife loves apple though, he next laptop will most likely be a Mac Pro.

|07M|11er|03cy|07ful Fate |08(|15hTc|08)|07

--- Enthral BBS v.634 (PI/2 Linux armv7l)
* Origin: haunting The chapel >>--> htc.zapto.org <--<< (46:1/140)

Hello Mercyful,

On 10 May 15 23:40, Mercyful Fate wrote to Accession:

Yep, although it was just announced.

Microsoft to stop producing Windows versions: http://m.bbc.com/news/technology-32658340

Looks like Windows 10 will be the last major version, then everything
else will be enchancements and upgrades to the same system. I bet
this will lead to a full subscription model at which time i will say
good bye microsoft.

I'd have to agree there. I'm not subscribing to anything. :)

Regards,
Nick

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130910
* Origin: thePharcyde_ telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (46:1/701)

Re: Re: Microsoft cross-platform dev tools
By: Mercyful Fate to Nightfox on Sun May 10 2015 23:44:04

Ya I was taking a peak at that last night. I just installed Mint on my wifes box as Windows 7 kept crashing, i figured i'd test if it's Windows 7 drivers or if it's hardware and linux has the same issues. I was looking to setup vmware with windows OS for iTunes since there is no linux version which sorta sucks. But it doesn't look quite ready at this time. I ended going for XP Pro 64 bit. But the latest itunes is not to friendly with it, so i have to try some work arounds and see if i have any luck. otherwise i'm really surprised how fast it runs in vmware.. Makes everything now a days feel over bloated to say the least.

I used to run Windows XP 64-bit. I found a workaround to install iTunes on it some time back, which involves editing the MSI installer for iTunes to add support for installing on XP 64-bit. This might help:
http://bit.ly/1zWGABE
Unfortunately, I believe the 64-bit version of Windows XP isn't officially supported by Microsoft as an end-user OS (or something to that effect), so many programs refuse to install on it, which does suck a bit.

Nightfox

Re: Re: Microsoft cross-platform dev tools
By: Mercyful Fate to Nightfox on Sun May 10 2015 23:49:34

The thing that will suck is they will faze windows 7 and the like out just like XP, Windows update will no longer work and you'll be stuck with programs that will not install on it anymore which is really underhanded with version checks in the .msi files.

All companies do that with their products though.. Old products end up getting fazed out as they are replaced with the newer products. It's not just a Microsoft thing.

I bet they don't want to scare anyone, but this could be the push that chrome os and others like linux need.

Perhaps. Just another push in a long line of pushes. I've thought about switching over primarily to Linux - The thing that mainly keeps me is Windows seems to be the OS that is supported for pretty much all types of apps. I like playing games too, and it seems Windows is the OS supported most for games. I would rather not have to reboot my PC into another OS just to run a piece of software.. And honestly, Windows runs fine on my PC and works alright for me for the time being. If it weren't for gaming though, I'd probably seriously think about switching to a Linux distro.

Mac is just as bad at time, but
myabe they will see this as an perfect change to out do microsoft and offer their stuff for free. Just OS/X has that pesky busniess about only wanting to run on apple hardware to deal with first. My wife loves apple though, he next laptop will most likely be a Mac Pro.

I'm not big on Apple myself, but OS X can be hacked to run on non-Apple hardware. There's a whole community around building "hackintosh" machines, and there's a web site that has lots of good information (including a pretty good hardware buying guide) if you want to build one:
http://www.tonymacx86.com/

Nightfox

$ Accession was quoted saying . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yep, although it was just announced.

Microsoft to stop producing Windows versions: http://m.bbc.com/news/technology-32658340

Looks like Windows 10 will be the last major version, then everything
else will be enchancements and upgrades to the same system. I bet
this will lead to a full subscription model at which time i will say
good bye microsoft.

I'd have to agree there. I'm not subscribing to anything. :)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Of course, i just read a follow-up somewhere else stating that "what they mean is" That by versions, they mean no home, pro, ultimate.. etc.. and that there bascially all in one OS and not "seperate versions". lol Most likely there will be windows 11 etc..

Bad reporting is anoying. heh

|07M|11er|03cy|07ful Fate |08(|15hTc|08)|07

--- Enthral BBS v.634 (PI/2 Linux armv7l)
* Origin: haunting The chapel >>--> htc.zapto.org <--<< (46:1/140)

$ Nightfox was quoted saying . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I used to run Windows XP 64-bit. I found a workaround to install iTunes
on it some time back, which involves editing the MSI installer for iTunes
to add support for installing on XP 64-bit. This might help: http://bit.ly/1zWGABE
Unfortunately, I believe the 64-bit version of Windows XP isn't officially supported by Microsoft as an end-user OS (or something to that effect), so many programs refuse to install on it, which does suck a bit.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yep, i just tried all of that in a VM, and it i got it to install but it won't run with the latest version. Just complains that is not a valid Win-32 executable. So i gave up on it. Doesn't look like that stuff works anymore. It's a shame, it's so fast and vaiable for older computers, but now it's just horse broken with update blocking etc.

At least it did a majority of the updates if you turn automatic updates on,
you just can get any updates through Windows/Microsoft Update.

|07M|11er|03cy|07ful Fate |08(|15hTc|08)|07

--- Enthral BBS v.634 (PI/2 Linux armv7l)
* Origin: haunting The chapel >>--> htc.zapto.org <--<< (46:1/140)

$ Nightfox was quoted saying . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The thing that will suck is they will faze windows 7 and the like out

just > like XP, Windows update will no longer work and you'll be stuck
with > programs that will not install on it anymore which is really underhanded > with version checks in the .msi files.

All companies do that with their products though.. Old products end up getting fazed out as they are replaced with the newer products. It's not just a Microsoft thing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yep, and i understand that. I guess it's more frustrating when it's an Os blocks stuff that it could run, however doesn't.

I have an issues with linux in that regard too. Nvidia for instance, recently fazed out drivers for 200 series and older cards from their main release.

The latest XServer ofrom xorg only runs on the most recent nvidia drivers, so you can fall back to older drivers.

Bascially this leaves you stuck using the open source Nouveau drivers which don't have full support for 3D or can be slightly flaky. So this has been a nice kick in the nuts for older systems running linux with nvidia cards at least.

$ Nightfox was quoted saying . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm not big on Apple myself, but OS X can be hacked to run on non-Apple hardware. There's a whole community around building "hackintosh"
machines, and there's a web site that has lots of good information
(including a pretty good hardware buying guide) if you want to build one:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have to agree, i'm not the biggest fan of their interface either. It has
some nice bells and whistles but feels very klunky to me and simple stuff like creating a new document or folder on the desktop quickly, easiy puts me off
of it. I've got a few VM's with different OSX versions, mainly Lion, and for beng older it sure does run a bit slugish in a VM. I have yosimite somewhere but it's fricking huge, not sure i want to throw that beast into a vm and
waste all of that space. :)

|07M|11er|03cy|07ful Fate |08(|15hTc|08)|07

--- Enthral BBS v.634 (PI/2 Linux armv7l)
* Origin: haunting The chapel >>--> htc.zapto.org <--<< (46:1/140)

Hello Mercyful,

On 12 May 15 15:50, Mercyful Fate wrote to Accession:

Of course, i just read a follow-up somewhere else stating that "what
they mean is" That by versions, they mean no home, pro, ultimate..
etc.. and that there bascially all in one OS and not "seperate
versions". lol Most likely there will be windows 11 etc..

Bad reporting is anoying. heh

Well, as long as they include all the stuff from Ultimate into the all-in-one, I'd be fine with that I suppose.

Regards,
Nick

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130910
* Origin: thePharcyde_ telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin) (46:1/701)

Re: Re: Microsoft cross-platform dev tools
By: Mercyful Fate to Nightfox on Tue May 12 2015 15:52:40

I used to run Windows XP 64-bit. I found a workaround to install
iTunes on it some time back, which involves editing the MSI installer
for iTunes to add support for installing on XP 64-bit. This might
help: http://bit.ly/1zWGABE

Yep, i just tried all of that in a VM, and it i got it to install but it won't run with the latest version. Just complains that is not a valid Win-32 executable. So i gave up on it. Doesn't look like that stuff works anymore. It's a shame, it's so fast and vaiable for older computers, but now it's just horse broken with update blocking etc.

That's too bad. I suppose Windows XP support had to be dropped at some point though.

Nightfox

Re: Re: Microsoft cross-platform dev tools
By: Mercyful Fate to Nightfox on Tue May 12 2015 15:55:10

I'm not big on Apple myself, but OS X can be hacked to run on
non-Apple hardware. There's a whole community around building

I have to agree, i'm not the biggest fan of their interface either. It has some nice bells and whistles but feels very klunky to me and simple stuff like creating a new document or folder on the desktop quickly, easiy puts me off of it. I've got a few VM's with different OSX versions, mainly Lion, and for beng older it sure does run a bit slugish in a VM. I have yosimite somewhere but it's fricking huge, not sure i want to throw that beast into a vm and waste all of that space. :)

I find some parts of OS X a little clunky myself. OS X software sometimes doesn't seem to make use of keyboard shortcuts as much as Windows/Linux software (although some keyboard shortcuts are there). I tend to like keyboard shortcuts for tasks I do very frequently. One thing I noticed in OS X that seems to lack a keyboard shortcut is renaming a file or directory - In Windows, I've gotten used to pressing F2 to do that, but in OS X, you have to click on the filename with the mouse in order to rename it.

Nightfox

$ Accession was quoted saying . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Well, as long as they include all the stuff from Ultimate into the all-in-one, I'd be fine with that I suppose.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ya, more like Home Edition, with the extras for a fee or subscriptions like MSDN or something.

|07M|11er|03cy|07ful Fate |08(|15hTc|08)|07

--- Enthral BBS v.634 (PI/2 Linux armv7l)
* Origin: haunting The chapel >>--> htc.zapto.org <--<< (46:1/140)

$ Nightfox was quoted saying . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

won't run with the latest version. Just complains that is not a valid Win-32 executable. So i gave up on it. Doesn't look like that stuff

works > anymore. It's a shame, it's so fast and vaiable for older
computers, but > now it's just horse broken with update blocking etc.

That's too bad. I suppose Windows XP support had to be dropped at some
point though.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yep, I bet in a couple more years Windows 7 will be in the same boat. And i just don't pirate OS's like i useta. Maybe casue i'm getting old but i really trust this stuff less and less now a days. Even the XP-64 bit i found was loaded full of stuff, i was running in a VM for testing so i didn't care and just cleaned it up or what it was worth.

|07M|11er|03cy|07ful Fate |08(|15hTc|08)|07

--- Enthral BBS v.634 (PI/2 Linux armv7l)
* Origin: haunting The chapel >>--> htc.zapto.org <--<< (46:1/140)

$ Nightfox was quoted saying . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I find some parts of OS X a little clunky myself. OS X software sometimes doesn't seem to make use of keyboard shortcuts as much as Windows/Linux software (although some keyboard shortcuts are there). I tend to like keyboard shortcuts for tasks I do very frequently. One thing I noticed in
OS X that seems to lack a keyboard shortcut is renaming a file or
directory - In Windows, I've gotten used to pressing F2 to do that, but in
OS X, you have to click on the filename with the mouse in order to rename
it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I go nuts when i want to copy / paste. I guess OSX has this special clover
key they use instead of control. And i haven't been able to figure out the sequence or key in vmware for it so i have to keep using the menu. haha

The only nice thing is at least Code::Blocks supports the normal CTRL C/V combo's.

|07M|11er|03cy|07ful Fate |08(|15hTc|08)|07

--- Enthral BBS v.634 (PI/2 Linux armv7l)
* Origin: haunting The chapel >>--> htc.zapto.org <--<< (46:1/140)

Re: Re: Microsoft cross-platform dev tools
By: Mercyful Fate to Nightfox on Tue May 12 2015 23:39:28

I go nuts when i want to copy / paste. I guess OSX has this special clover key they use instead of control. And i haven't been able to figure out the sequence or key in vmware for it so i have to keep using the menu. haha

I believe that key is called the Apple key. If you're using a Windows keyboard, the Windows key can be used in place of the Apple key - at least that's the default in recent versions of OS X. If you're viewing your VMware machine in a window though, the Windows key might still trigger your Windows Start menu - so if there's a way to make your VMware window maximized to take up the full screen, you might need to do that in order to use the Windows key as the Apple key in your VMWare session. Alternatley, I believe there's a way to change the key configuration in OS X from one of its control panel items.

The only nice thing is at least Code::Blocks supports the normal CTRL C/V combo's.

What's "normal" depends on the OS. ;) The ctrl key is the convention on Windows, but the Apple key is the convention in OS X.

Nightfox

Nightfox wrote to Mercyful Fate <=-

That's too bad. I suppose Windows XP support had to be dropped at some point though.

I hated XP64; supported that for a while back in 2008 on 30 desktops
and we always ran into weird quirks with it. Server 2008 ended up
being a better 64 bit platform until Windows 7 came out.

... Use fewer notes
--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.50
* Origin: Sent from my iPhone (46:1/115)

$ Nightfox was quoted saying . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I believe that key is called the Apple key. If you're using a Windows keyboard, the Windows key can be used in place of the Apple key - at least that's the default in recent versions of OS X. If you're viewing your
VMware machine in a window though, the Windows key might still trigger
your Windows Start menu - so if there's a way to make your VMware window maximized to take up the full screen, you might need to do that in order
to use the Windows key as the Apple key in your VMWare session.
Alternatley, I believe there's a way to change the key configuration in OS
X from one of its control panel items.

The only nice thing is at least Code::Blocks supports the normal CTRL

C/V > combo's.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Cool, thanks for the tip, I believe I was in windowed mode at the time but
I'll make sure to try it fullscreen next time.

|07M|11er|03cy|07ful Fate |08(|15hTc|08)|07

--- Enthral BBS v.634 (PI/2 Linux armv7l)
* Origin: haunting The chapel >>--> htc.zapto.org <--<< (46:1/140)

$ Poindexter Fortran was quoted saying . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I hated XP64; supported that for a while back in 2008 on 30 desktops
and we always ran into weird quirks with it. Server 2008 ended up
being a better 64 bit platform until Windows 7 came out.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ya, I think by the time 64 bit came to XP they were getting ready to move on
to other things. I have to admint Windows 7 is a pretty decent 64 bit platform.

|07M|11er|03cy|07ful Fate |08(|15hTc|08)|07

--- Enthral BBS v.634 (PI/2 Linux armv7l)
* Origin: haunting The chapel >>--> htc.zapto.org <--<< (46:1/140)

Mercyful Fate wrote to Poindexter Fortran <=-

Ya, I think by the time 64 bit came to XP they were getting ready to
move on to other things. I have to admint Windows 7 is a pretty decent
64 bit platform.

I agree -- running a server OS for a desktop was a pain, being able to
run the same OS on admin desktops as well as developer workstations
made life much easier.

It's pretty crazy that our "standard" desktop became a 3 ghz Core i7
with 8 gigs of RAM and an SSD.



... Powered By Celeron (Tualatin). Engineered for the future.
--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.50
* Origin: Sent from my iPhone (46:1/115)

$ Poindexter Fortran was quoted saying . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I agree -- running a server OS for a desktop was a pain, being able to
run the same OS on admin desktops as well as developer workstations
made life much easier.

It's pretty crazy that our "standard" desktop became a 3 ghz Core i7
with 8 gigs of RAM and an SSD.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ya, i've gota basically the same with my work laptop. I do like how fast the SSD drives boot. Makes me want to get one.

|07M|11er|03cy|07ful Fate |08(|15hTc|08)|07

--- Enthral BBS v.634 (PI/2 Linux armv7l)
* Origin: haunting The chapel >>--> htc.zapto.org <--<< (46:1/140)

thing I noticed in OS X that seems to lack a keyboard shortcut is
renaming a file or directory - In Windows, I've gotten used to pressing
F2 to do that, but in OS X, you have to click on the filename with the mouse in order to rename it.

Pressing Enter on a filename in OS-X's Finder lets you rename it.

--- Mystic BBS v1.10 (Linux)
* Origin: The Shadow Dominion BBS (46:3/102)

Re: Re: Microsoft cross-platform dev tools
By: tekhammer to Nightfox on Sat May 16 2015 22:24:44

thing I noticed in OS X that seems to lack a keyboard shortcut is
renaming a file or directory - In Windows, I've gotten used to
pressing F2 to do that, but in OS X, you have to click on the
filename with the mouse in order to rename it.

Pressing Enter on a filename in OS-X's Finder lets you rename it.

That's right, I forgot about that.. That's another thing that bugs me a little though - In Windows, pressing enter on a directory opens the directory. I had tried doing that on a Mac and found that it would let me rename the directory instead. :)

Nightfox

Ya i think it include the basic's at least, maybe not everything. We'll have to wait and see. Shouldn't be too much longer i suppose.

--- DayDream BBS/UNIX (Linux) 2.15a
* Origin: Black Flag - ACiD Telnet HQ - blackflag.acid.org:2627 (46:1/204)

$ Mercyful Fate was quoted saying . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ya i think it include the basic's at least, maybe not everything. We'll
have to wait and see. Shouldn't be too much longer i suppose.

--- DayDream BBS/UNIX (Linux) 2.15a
* Origin: Black Flag - ACiD Telnet HQ - blackflag.acid.org:2627

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hmm ya Cappy, looks like the quoting is not coming through. I'll do some more tests when i have some time.

|07M|11er|03cy|07ful Fate |08(|15hTc|08)|07

--- Enthral BBS v.634 (PI/2 Linux armv7l)
* Origin: haunting The chapel >>--> htc.zapto.org <--<< (46:1/140)

Mercyful Fate wrote to Poindexter Fortran <=-

Ya, i've gota basically the same with my work laptop. I do like how
fast the SSD drives boot. Makes me want to get one.

I'm a big fan of Hybrid SATAs - they're spinning drives with a slab of
FLASH RAM stuck to the side, effectively working like a 4 or 8 GB
cache. Startup is like a standard SATA, but once it fills up the cache
it flies. They're cheap, too.



... Powered By Celeron (Tualatin). Engineered for the future.
--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.50
* Origin: Sent from my iPhone (46:1/115)

That's right, I forgot about that.. That's another thing that bugs me a little though - In Windows, pressing enter on a directory opens the directory. I had tried doing that on a Mac and found that it would let
me rename the directory instead. :)

You could remap the F2 key to Enter. But that's bound to take you down an unhappy rabbit hole. :D

--- Mystic BBS v1.10 (Linux)
* Origin: The Shadow Dominion BBS (46:3/102)

$ Poindexter Fortran was quoted saying . . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm a big fan of Hybrid SATAs - they're spinning drives with a slab of
FLASH RAM stuck to the side, effectively working like a 4 or 8 GB
cache. Startup is like a standard SATA, but once it fills up the cache
it flies. They're cheap, too.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I've been debating as i see alot of talk about integerity and data loss if
your system is powered down for a couple weeks. Although i know my work
laptop has one and hasn't had a single problem. :) I does boot up super fast and one it boots your not sitting there at the desktop for a mintutes or two while everything loads up which is nice.

|07M|11er|03cy|07ful Fate |08(|15hTc|08)|07

--- Enthral BBS v.634 (PI/2 Linux armv7l)
* Origin: haunting The chapel >>--> htc.zapto.org <--<< (46:1/140)